Happy Birthday, MLP:FiM! MLP:FiM turns 9 years old this year! Let's celebrate with an art event!
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38 comments posted
poprox101's avatar
poprox101
Wallet After Summer Sale

@Darth Sonic
Maybe in the comments of a picture of said pretty pony princesses. But it’s really off-topic on a picture of Fluttershy wearing only a thong drinking with Rainbow Dash. Why can’t we have a debate about why Fluttershy has decided to get mostly naked but keep her panties on? That’s much more entertaining.
CronoM
@Darth Sonic
Back to Sunset, yes, a lot of the material is based on only semi-canon material and a few assumptions, but I have to disagree on one point. When Sunset used the book to call for help, she wasn’t trying to contact Twilight, she resolved herself and wrote for the first time in many years "Dear Princess Celestia…"

Knowing Pony Twilight and having the sense of urgency regarding the sirens stopped her from pressing forward with contacting Celestia and welcoming Twilight to come over instead. After EG2, I’m not saying that Sunset doesn’t still have some OLD anxieties for contacting Celestia, but it may have been worsened by Sunset finding out her precious memento and communication book with Celestia was traded off to her new student.

She already resolved herself to reconcile with Celestia in EG2, but because the book was traded off, if I was in her position, I would have the added fear of trying to reconcile with Celestia but being rejected. The fear of rejection is great, any evidence of rejection would make it worse, and Celestia was more or less like her mother. It seems Sunset wants to see Celestia a lot more, but is now too scared of the response.
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CronoM
@Darth Sonic
I understand with your stance on canon and headcanon, although I’ll get back to Sunset in a second.

I think both the options you gave regarding Celestia for Twilight are off base, although the truth might be leaning closer to the first option. The first option suggests healthy emotional intent to set Twilight on the right path, and the second option suggests unhealthy emotional intent to set Twilight on the right path.

Neither describes someone who couldn’t manage emotional intent for Twilight to begin with. (Plus, I don’t think the second option would of ever worked anyway. Comedy and understanding are not Twilight’s strong suits)

Twilight thinks the world of Celestia, and Celestia dotes upon her so thoroughly her parents are barely involved. (Heck, even when right in front of each other during Flurry Heart’s episode, Twilight somehow manages to exchange zero words with her parents, which is just ludicrous)

And yet, Celestia shares no emotional connection with Twilight and has never encouraged it, letting her keep her idolized perspective of her until episode 1 and onward. Then Celestia lied about nightmare moon being real to get twilight sparkle motivated to do something while not being honest about it and inciting a panic, or military or personal action…Luna needed to be healed through the elements. A bit of "Celestial Advice" that Celestia didn’t include, nor the fact that she knew Twilight’s obsession and idolization would not fade even if she made friends, and continued to never discourage it even a little. She then arranged numerous disasters to lean unnecessarily into Twilight’s direction to make Twilight the sole hero/lesson learner despite the risks to make Twilight a perfect princess.

The political angle of developing a connection is simply too unfeasible. There were thousands of easier ways Celestia could of established a more personal and healthy connection, and never would Twilight consider herself even close to an equal to Celestia.

Despite all the pep talks, it was never a two way street, beyond showing a bit of humor, Celestia would never even pretended to open up to Twilight by S5. However, by the time S6 rolled around, in several episodes Celestia’s normal pep talk attitude has changed. She wanted to make Twilight a strong, independent princess by all these past forced trials, but its become apparent she’s still the brown noser and zealot she always has been, and Celestia’s patience toward’s Twilight’s growth has dwindled dwindles.

Celestia never had a good plan for Twilight, it was a flawed plan from the getgo. The entire idea of controlling and growing Twilight through maintained idolization and forced trials, yet expecting her to become strong AND independent princess, was a complete failure. That idolization kept her from ever desiring that independence.



I do agree with you that Celestia is trying NOW with Celestial Advice and possibly onward, but its bandage solutions at best. Obviously Celestia can’t be completely honest and emotionally open about how she’s manipulated Twilight’s life to become an element and a princess, but its also obvious if she doesn’t establish an emotional connection with Twilight now, she’ll remain a zealot for her whole life. The way I see it, partial truths and omissions will have to do for now in her eyes. Heck if were going by her response to ’the princess might be wrong’ comment in the Celestia and Luna episode, she might already be a lost cause, unless we get a serious injection of Amending Fences-esque episodes.
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Darth Sonic's avatar
Darth Sonic
Friendship, Art, and Magic (6 Years) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Friendship, Art, and Magic (7 Years) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@CronoM
I half agree with this. No, let me rephrase that. I completely agree with this in terms of personal headcanon. In terms of actual canon however, only the stuff you said about Twilight holds water. The stuff about her guilt and avoidance of Sunset is merely speculation do to lack of canonical information.

I will propose, however, that Celestia HAS been making a concerted, if very clumsy, effort to break down the emotional barrier between herself and Twilight. This is especially evident in Celestial Advice (though so is the way Celestia’s mental hang ups kinda sabotaged Twilight; Twilight was SUPPOSED to link up with the other Elements much earlier than she did, but Celestia kept her around until the very last second because she didn’t want to lose her Luna/Sunset hybrid :P). I say her earlier attempts at breaking down the barriers were clumsy because the mostly involved either giving Twilight more responsibilities as to make her a political equal and hoping Twilight will just naturally get closer to her once the playing field was leveled (that’s what Sunset and Luna both wanted right? Except neither of the have the same problems of pathological idolization Twilight has). Or Celestia goes the exact opposite extreme by just ripping off her queenly mask, pulling the emotional rug right out from under Twilight, and rocket farting right off of the pedestal Twilight built for her by pulling the shit she pulled at both Galas and to a lesser extent Celestial Advise.

The former method isn’t going to work because of Twilight’s aforementioned obsessions and fixation issues. The latter, while on the right track, won’t work because Twilight is a bit of a zealot, and is thus likely to simply go into denial and act like Celestia was simply testing her. However, Celestia is still at least trying with Twilight. Celeste doesn’t even seem to be trying where Sunset is concerned, though again, due to lack of information, I can’t say if that is Celestia’s fault or Sunset’s. It’s very possible that Sunset is avoiding Celestia, and not the other way around. We just don’t know.
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CronoM
@Darth Sonic
Indeed :(

From what we can tell between canon and semicanon information, Celestia failing to lead sunset down a right path initially as a practical mother the same way she failed luna for 1000 years as an older sister sort of broke her.

Her emotional need to have a succussor has now become a deranged obsession. It’s laser focused on Twilight, yet at the same time she keeps Twilight at an emotional arm’s length.

And when the thought occurred to her that her prodigal daughter might contact her as a changed mare, AFTER celestia resolved herself to give up on sunset and focus only on twilight, she sent the book away to twilight’s place. She was afraid, Celestia can’t face reality with,Sunset and keep this obsession with Twilight up at the same time.

And thus it leaves sunset in the cold while Celestia doesn’t have the courage to see her.
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CronoM
@Darth Sonic
Agreed, not saying it wasn’t. Celestia’s lengths she’ll go to make twilight shine the brightest over others is troubling. It’s not the same type of dependency both ways of course, but its still there.
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Darth Sonic's avatar
Darth Sonic
Friendship, Art, and Magic (6 Years) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Friendship, Art, and Magic (7 Years) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@CronoM
I actually think the hyperdependecy goes both ways here. Twilight is getting better, and Celestia’s immortal’s experience allows her to deal with it better, but Celestia seems equally fixated on Twi.
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CronoM
@gameangel147
Your partially correct, but I think your missing the point. Hyperdependeny doesn’t always nessessitate lack of self sufficiency. A fanatic can still LIVE for a certain person even if they are far away so long as they feel they are always acting in the other persons interests.

Her highest motivation throughout the entire series is being a good student or princess for celestia. It has taken precedence over her friends and her family.

So no, she is not so unhealthy she has lack of self sufficiency without celestia. But her core motivations are still tied to her obsessively, and thats still not exactly healthy, don’t you agree?
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