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It was an reaction to ongoing discussion on 4chan: some posters believe that it's alright to insult work of artists that do requests in draw threads. Justification is that "true artists" will look for harsh critiques anyway and they have thick skin, that it will promote quality over quantity and that anyone on 4chan is already used to this kind of treatment.


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24 comments posted
Background Pony #1DCE
This is all Chan culture and to be expected. Yea youll get people who arent helpful but most of the draw threads arent like that. Harsh? Yes but thats 4chan. Its like a prerequisite for posting. Always unhelpful? No. I used to be a drawfriend on /b/ and people shit on my art constantly, you just have to look for the assholes who have something useful. And if none of them do, fuck em.
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I'm just this pone, see?
Let's be real here. If one has spent any amount of time on 4chan one knows people will insult you anywhere, any time, for any reason (or no reason) at all. Don't react poorly, and better yet, don't react; if one does, you're giving a bunch of (probably) bored people a big, extremely interesting target to fling more shit at. 4chan tends to love schadenfreude!

The "true" artist thing is just a matter of opinion; it sounds like "No true Scotsman" to me. That's neither here nor there, though.

That said, there are four components to a useful critique, no matter how "harsh".

1) Understanding what goal or goals the artist is trying to accomplish
2) With that understanding, demonstrate what is working well to achieve their goal and why (seriously important, so artist doesn't change a thing that's working well)
3) Show what is NOT helping the artist achieve their goal, and WHY
4) Help the artist understand what exactly to do to improve (redlines and visuals are AMAZING)

"Your art sucks, fix it" is harsh but useless.

"Your stallions suck, but your mares are better, just stick to drawing mares" is also harsh, and it rings of personal taste, and really is useless to the artist especially if they WANT to get better at drawing stallions, for instance. So, still useless.

"Okay, the anatomy on your stallions looks a little off, here's a couple of guides on how to draw better MLP stallions, etc." is SUPER interesting and helpful to the artist.
Background Pony #2CED
Honestly this is a complete derail lmao. Nobody mentioned censorship before you brought it up.
Insults bad, that's all there ever was to it. And it is a false dichotomy to claim that being against rudeness is being a polar opposite hugboxer.

Why it's all that matters: nothing you or I say will change Derpibooru or 4chan moderation. I'm saying this discussion does not matter. I see this piece as a callout not a call for moderation.
Background Pony #DD5C

…not saying that the *chans generally aren't a wretched hive of scum and villainy, etc., etc., because they are. I don't think there's some secret shiptoast army agenda, though. Like the man says, "I'll tell you the truth. I don't think this is a 'brains' kind of operation."
Background Pony #2CED
Nobody cares about the lack of praise.
Nobody cares about the constructive criticism.
The people hurling insults though, they are not welcome by anyone, and that will not change because they do not offer redeeming qualities by definition.

You're also going into absurdity talking about moderation schemes which don't exist there and don't really exist here. Not to that extent anyways. It doesn't even matter if they are silenced, there is no great contribution to art being a serial mudslinger in comment sections.

Imagine going into an art gallery and deciding that today you would find an artist there for a display and insult them. You'd be kicked out on the spot. Difference is instead of hauling you off by the arm you get a time out and can go ruin another website, which makes complaining about being unable to complain seem even more frivolous.

4chan is a casual discussion board, not a gallery.
Duck - "someone befriended them, saved them, coaxed them out of their shell, and showed them that sex is nothing to be afraid of. I’m kind of envious of that rape victim"

@Background Pony #948E

I'm saying stay wary of communities whose moderators shut people up for complaining. derpibooru does that, which I think is a bad idea, but it's not too bad. just one warning sign. 4chan has shit moderation not because they allow people to say art is bad. it's because they censor people for going against the organization's agenda of being a training camp for shitposters.

if a forum is popular, unfederated, and if they changed their standard to "anyone not praising the artist gets banned," then upholding that you might not get banned, but you would still be a bad person doing a bad thing that hurt a lot of people. so no, that's not all that matters.
Background Pony #2CED
You covered nothing I said, but these discussions consist of a pointless tittering of personal moralities and I fail to care.
Fact: It's completely up to the moderators of the communities we use what standards there are which we are expected to uphold. That is all that matters. 4chan has shit moderation and that is a literal truth.
Duck - "someone befriended them, saved them, coaxed them out of their shell, and showed them that sex is nothing to be afraid of. I’m kind of envious of that rape victim"

@Background Pony #948E

telling someone their art sucks has never even gotten the hall monitors called on anyone. that's what I mean about getting more thin skinned. if someone's physically trapping you against the wall forcing you to stay there so they can talk about what a retard you are until you're reduced to tears, then maybe you can talk about "toxic" behavior. otherwise, avoid hugboxes. they're making you see your potential friends and allies as enemies.
Background Pony #2CED
I disagree. I think people who offer nonconstructive criticism deserve to be ignored — if only by a block by the offended party — or silenced. Not every artist is averse to criticism, I submit pieces specifically for that purpose and being free of mouthpieces hurling grade school insults at me would mean less noise to sort through looking for meaningful insight on my art. I would improve faster not wasting my time on these people.

We're mostly on the internet for entertainment. The idea thasome people's form of entertainment is causing harm to strangers and because that harm might make others thicker skinned, that makes it good, isn't something that sits right by me. Just cease the harm. People are more cruel to others online because there is a breakdown of the restraints that keep them altruistic and good, namely real and often fast consequences. Disturbing the peace is a real thing, and it is a thing here too. Toxic behaviour needs to be chastised online as it is offline, especially given how many people's work and lives now revolve around using internet communication.
Duck - "someone befriended them, saved them, coaxed them out of their shell, and showed them that sex is nothing to be afraid of. I’m kind of envious of that rape victim"

it's not alright to insult work of artists that do requests in draw threads, but you're walking on thin ice when you start talking about silencing people who insist on doing so. it's not that a thin skinned artist is not a good artist. it's that a sheltered artist becomes even more thin skinned. if you hear nothing but praise for months, then even slight criticism seems surprising and upsetting. telling people they shouldn't insult others is fine, but censoring them to protect the artist's feelings is how you develop a cult of personality. it might be necessary to silence some people, if it's the only way to keep them from disrupting the forum, but it shouldn't be seen as a good thing, and it should never be a first resort.
Background Pony #DD5C
Is that Rainbow Dash in the image? It looks like her.

…and yes, I frequent 4chan also, and the art threads are always a train wreck. The reaction to just about any image anyone posts is invariably "your art is total fyaying garbage, kys 4real fyaygot." Even people trying to be gracious and thank an artist for making something for them get dogpiled on.

Maybe I'm old. Get off my lawn, you crazy kids! But there was a time when four-year-olds were taught to say "please" and "thank you," because that's the absolute minimum, absolute most basic level of civil human interaction. 4chan isn't even as civil as four-year-olds.
Background Pony #2CED
Worst part is the destitute idiots treating the thread like a free request thread for porn they'll never be able to afford to commission.
Background Pony #9CA2
"Well, if you want good art, some payment goes a long way."
"But I said I would pay you with exposure."
"Yeah, and when's the last time you used 'exposure' to pay bills, rent or groceries? 'Cause if you can't pay for those things with 'exposure', then I can't either."
"But I want free art!"
"And I want to be able to feed myself, you entitled twat!"
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Bespectacled Birbcat
Critique is absolutely worthless if it does not suggest means or methods for improvement.

"Your car is broken. Fix it."
Background Pony #EF4F
This happened in /tg/, and /tg/ has no drawfriends anymore. You ain't pay nothing for a request, don't beg and choose.
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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Silly Pegasi Pone
There is a fine line between criticing someone then going outta your way to be a total jerk. Everyone has to learn how to do better in drawing, even the best artist still is learning because art is an forever changing form. And nothing can truly be perfect, cuz if stuff was always perfect, life would sure not be as fun as it can be.

But like im saying, there is a fine line between criticism and being a dick. There are some artists out there so arrogant of themselves and their art they dont see anything or their mistakes then attack those who tell them they are making mistakes, or they blow up and block the requester or something else very similar. Ive seen and met quite a few artists like that.

But again, like i stated and ill keep stating to make my point. There is a HUGE line between criticism and being a dick. Some of those posters sound like they are going beyond that line and are being a dick.

And i know what some people are most definitely gonna say which wont surprise me "Oh its free art! Be happy you got something!"

And to that i say….. how is the artist supposed to learn anything if you dont tell them whats wrong? How can they ever learn and get better? if all you do is praise the artist and you DAMN well know the art isnt good at all… they are never gonna improve and down the road when they try to do commissions or something similar…. people are gonna avoid them like the plague because of the simple fact their art is SUPER BAD.

Practice makes perfect.

Ive learned this a long time ago that you gotta keep practicing and take constructive criticism to heart. If someone tells you, that you are making a mistake and are being polite about it, you dont give them the middle finger and tell them to f off or something else absolutely rude because that will only show you are nothing but an dick and you dont deserve to have their money or their loyalty. And…. as the whole world knows…. what you say on the internet… stays there forever. And everyone will find out someday that you are worthy of their loyalty or their money for how you act.
Background Pony #9998
>/r/ original content
>they do it for free
>mercilessly mock mistakes
>continue to demand original content
>wonder why all the cool people leave

never change, 4chan