Religious Disscusion Thread

Think someone can point to me where in the bible it says that you shouldn’t alter yourself?

@Meanlucario
Alter as in what? Body modification? For example, Old Testament did require circumcision, which is a body modification. Some other passages:

Ezekiel 16:12: “I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears”. The nose ring and earrings symbolize blessings and beauty. This indicates piercings were normal and not prohibited.

Leviticus 19:28 “Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.” This is a prohibition on pagan mourning customs. I wouldn’t say it’s an outright ban on tattoos, it’s only a ban on pagan tattoos and other tattoos incompatible with Judaism/Christianity. The preceding sentence bans pagan haircuts (which I suspect could be a mourning custom as well).

And of course the rest of the Bible applies too, so e.g. modifications born of vanity or ones that are borderline mutilation are frowned upon.

@Background Pony #A15E
The topic of transexual came up yesterday, and it occurred to me that I have no idea if anti-trans is even in the bible. If so, would that also include stuff like drugs to stop bipolar? People born without limbs getting them through mechanical means? Where is the line drawn, if said line is even in the bible?

@Meanlucario
I don’t think Bible bans prostheses or drugs. It also says nothing about gender reassignment surgery. AFAIK Bible says nothing about transgender people. Any Christian opposition to transgenderism seems to be based mostly on the (IMHO false) notion that changing your gender is a way to work around the prohibitions on homosexualism. They also often quote Genesis 5:2, but I don’t think that’s relevant.

@Background Pony #A15E
What I hear is “God made us this way, so we shouldn’t change it.” I’m trying to find out where it says that in the bible, if at all.

@Meanlucario
I don’t think it says so anywhere in the Bible. You can try searching the web because I might have missed something.

Sometimes 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 is used as an argument against body modification, but it’s in a passage decrying sexual immorality, so this is what it refers to.

@Background Pony #A15E
Just read that. It’s much less body modification and much more ruining your body.

[@Meanlucario]stickman hoook(/forums/dis/topics/religious-disscusion-thread?post_id=5174383#post_5174383)

You know, I’m starting to think that God doesn’t have an issue with sexual transitions. So far, no one has been able to point to where the bible would imply it’s a bad thing. Maybe if Satan can mess up people’s limbs and brains at birth, why not their sex as well?

@Meanlucario
I wouldn’t say that congenital disorders happen because Satan is messing up people’s organs. They are just misdevelopments. Not every bad thing happens because of an active intervention of demons/angels/God. Most bad events are just consequences of imperfection of the world we live in.

@Background Pony #A15E
You do realize this is the religious thread, right?

@Meanlucario
Yes. But I found it weird that you seemed to attribute all congenital disorders to Satan’s action. It’s making him seem more powerful than he is. Satan is just a fallen angel. The most powerful of them, but still.

Just like if my car got hit by a meteorite, I wouldn’t say that Satan destroyed my car. It was either an accident or God made it happen for some reason.

@Background Pony #A15E
You might want to read the bool of Job than, because Satan had quite a bit of power over Job’s body in that book.

@Meanlucario
God specifically let Satan have that power over Job. See Job 1:12 and Job 2:6.

@Background Pony #A15E
And? It was still Satan doing it. Also, I firmly believe we live in a world ruled by mankind with Satan as an advisor. 99.99% of people don’t get the same protection Job had.

Why does the catholic church not believe in the rapture? I’m guessing a pope said “Nah fam, it ain’t happening.”

@Meanlucario
There’s some info on Wikipedia, but I’m not sure if it’s what you’re looking for.

@Background Pony #A15E
Why they don’t believe the rapture will happen. It’s exactly what I said in my previous post.

Biological defects are born from genetic mutations, the same mutations that are the wellspring of evolution and adaption, but also the domain of ionizing radiation.

So unless Satan controls evolution, genetics, and all sources of radiation then he’s not the source of genetic abnormalities. It’s merely poor luck from a natural process dictated by natural laws.

You can argue whether or not you believe a God to be the origin of those natural laws, but the actual mechanisms are well known and established.

Satan’s ability to make changes pre-birth would imply he has the power to circumvent God’s will, because such changes would be before ‘free will’ came into the picture with the unborn. Otherwise, then it would still be gods plan for that person to have a genetic abnormality, since Satan wouldn’t be able to do anything outside of God’s planning unless it directly involves temptation with free will.

Unless one wants to argue that Satan is tempting children in the womb and then afflicting them with mutations like he’s fucking Nurgle.

@Zincy
Considering that in Christianity, entities like God, Satan, angels and demons are outside of laws of the universe, I think you’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Also, as I said before, it’s not God’s world we live in. It’s mankind’s world with Satan as the main adviser.

But God is the grand architect of that entire aperatus yes? With his plan being insurmountable by any other being lest he allow it? Am I correct in this interpretation?

So, regardless of being beyond the material plane, God holds complete and utter dominion over the specific plan to this specific material realm. And no being outside of God, whose plan is supposedly perfect, should be able to influence that plan if it is outside the purview of “free will” which has already been covered in previous dogma.

A baby is not subject to free will or temptation, its gestation should be 100% in line with God’s plan for it. If Satan is powerful enough to come in and directly tamper with God’s plan, not just tempt mortals, actually physical alter the specific conditions in which a mortal being develops making it contrary to God’s initial design, then that makes God’s plan imperfect or Satan as powerful as God.

Again, unless God knows in advance that Satan will manipulate said babies. Which would mean a child born with Trisome 21 would be because God wanted them to have a short, painful life and merely acted through Satan to allow it.

And if this is “mankind’s world” then God’s plan is irrelevant and will be irrelevant since it is not currently active by that logic.

@Zincy
The physical is temporary, and the spiritual is permanent. That’s the thing about Christianity. And we are talking about a being out of time, who knows the outcome of everything. You also forget that God knows this stuff in advance and planned around it, or that his overall plan isn’t affected by humanity’s actions. He’s a DM who has an overall plan but allows his players to do what they want. Also, I’d figured you be for me saying that God isn’t anti-transexual, and those who are using God’s name to justify being anti-trans makes them even bigger scum than before.

I am probing the bounds of your belief system for my own curiosity, not really to prove or deny any specific point.

I would argue in favor of that statement yes. Because any deity that was that powerful and complex would not give a damn about someones gender preference or sexuality. It would be so utterly beneath their notice or interest.

@Zincy
At least buy me dinner before probing me next time.

I think that it’s a case of “can you follow the rules I set out for you” for the most part. To demonstrate commitment and earnest for the one you claim to worship and follow.

Where in the bible does it say that swearing is bad?