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Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
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@Kazapsky
agree that the two factions are at war trying to eradicate each other BUT, their voterbase, don't necessarily want that. People don't support each faction wholesale, btw. You could support a party for its policies or promises or get pulled into it by some other reasons without ever agreeing to killing other people.

If you're willing to argue "what else can Israel do when they're getting fired upon" then I am able to argue "what else Palestinians can do when Hamas is offering them food shelter and dignity?" Like…Israel is a racist state and Hamas is a terrorist group—BOTH are major grifters!

YET, you're too bitter if you can't see that both are wiling to live under a peaceful, with no rocket fire whatsoever existence even if that means Al-Aqsa or The Wall is off limit for one or both parties. I guarantee. Hamas uses the religion angle because literally they expect that Palestinians are desperate enough to the point of blindly reaching for any lifeline they can get.

i.e. blaming Palestinians for taking literally the only chance of a semblance of a dignified life of non-slavery for the death of children due to Israeli counterattack seems highly callous and not at all "factual."
Latecomer

@tehwatever
It would also destroy the original point of Israel — a place where Jews were not a monority vulnerable to the will of the masses. Said masses being made up of a group with generations of built-up hatred will not improve this plan at all.


@Kazapsky
Plenty of people on both sides disagree, though — although the current situation is no doubt reducing that number.
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@Latecomer
Lemme hear it then. What would your solution be?

Edit: Btw…if Palestinians and Jews are one people, the people of Israel then guess what. Palestinians will defend the jews. The same way we see white people defending the rights of black people in the USA. Come on. When people are happy, they would have no reason to go at each other's throats (unless in a consensual, regulated sport)
Latecomer

@tehwatever
I'm a backer of the two-state, or possibly even three-state solution. Now, if you're asking how to make that happen… well, please excuse me for not being able to solve one of the worst tangles in modern geopolitics alone. But it will certainly require a change of government on all fronts.
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@Latecomer
At this point Israel has way too much land for a Two-State, and it wouldn't solve the hatred. Palestinians will still hate Israel and resent them from squatting on their previous houses. So IMO it was good back in the 80s or 90s. in 2021? eugh.

A One-State with everybody having equal rights like the USA and the rest of the Western first world is ideal. Jews need to get rid of this "but then we're the minority and vulnerable once again" mentality. No you're not. Your nation will be strong—it's ALREADY a military powerhouse! You're just going to integrate palestinians in the workforce.

Oh! Many "Palestinian arab" are "native" to the land so they're…technically tied to the land of Israel aren't they? Right to Return and everything, right? This stupid idea that the jew diaspora needs a home because every other place wants to kill them is…

I work near a thriving jewish community. IN SPAIN. They can have automatic citizenship if they can prove their ancestor was displaced during the World War and Franco Era so…No. Aside from the arabs, nobody else wanna kill the jews, not to the same intensity.

Besides, thinking that your race is some special kid is racist, ngl. I'm sorry. Two State solution is a racist solution that could have worked but it's kinda too late imo.
Latecomer

@tehwatever
No, in an fair democracy, the more numerous Palestineans will become the dominant bloc. And the hatred built up over decades won't vanish so easily. Intergration of the Palestinean population into Israel is far more unbeleivable than the creation of (a) Palestinean state(s).

After centuries of pogroms, the Holocaust, and the current attitude of groups like Hamas… no, the idea of "a land where the Jews are second to no-one" isn't going to disappear.
Background Pony #C1E8
@Latecomer
While I agree that a secular state like the US is preferable, I agree that I don't see it as practical. I don't see Israel in a place where you can have two very different religions living together peacefully right now.
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@Latecomer
Ofc the palestinians will be a dominant bloc—and this is where the tricky part is: dissolve what makes palestinians different from jews. When you abroad what are you? the first thing that comes into your mind what are you? black? white? brit? irish—what?

When palestinians strongly feel like an Israeli, that's what you want. In that case they will be no different from a jew israeli, woudln't they? An american's an american. black or white, ideally the difference shouldn't matter apart from superficial things.

"I'm Israeli and I'm proud" shouldn't just be exclusive for the jews, ideally. I KNOW it's not going to disappear anytime soon but imo it's something to work towards. The 2-state should just be a stepping stone towards a united Israel, for both jews and palestinians, nay, for Israelis of all races and religion (yes, including the black jewish of israel. they exist).
Latecomer

@tehwatever
I assure you, no plan which involves the death of the distinct Jewish identity is going to fly. Not after 2000 years of preserving it against all sorts of opposition.

There are Israeli Arabs. I don't know if they feel like Israelis — probably some do and some don't. There are Bedouins, Druze… all sorts. But never so many that the Jews have to choose between democracy and self-governance.
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@Latecomer
Ugh.
You know, I personally would be more okay if they were building a Judaism Friendly state, a place for practitioners of judaism. Why? Because a practice requires logistics and facilities that maybe other places couldn't provide. A practice also requires the volition of the practitioner, which means people would feel far more strongly to the place where they can freely practice as they see fit.

But a race? and ethnostate not only for the local jews but abroad? regardless of what they believe what language they speak what identity they carry, on the sacrifice of actual locals? Naw.
Latecomer

@tehwatever
Well, that's the fundamental principle of Israel, built on 2000 years of being outcasts at the mercy of Gentile hosts. It seems rather unlikely to be given up on — especially for the sake of mixing not with random Gentiles, but a people who have generations of built-up hatred for Jews, and vice versa.
CaptainXtra

El Paso Resident
@tehwatever
I’m not sure if you heard but Pro-Palestine protests in France were being cracked down on pretty hard.

Mostly because protests related to The Israel-Palestine conflict are allegedly banned over there in croissant country.

So what you see here in this image is apparently illegal:

Latecomer

@AaronMk
Commonality of all mankind is an appealing argument, but in this era of identity politics, also a questionable one.

And in the end, German Jews got emancipation and secular equality, mostly by renouncing their religion. And everything was fine after that.
AaronMk
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#Turmoil2020's
@Latecomer
@AaronMk
Commonality of all mankind is an appealing argument, but in this era of identity politics, also a questionable one.

And in the end, German Jews got emancipation and secular equality, mostly by renouncing their religion. And everything was fine after that.


Missing the point m'man
Latecomer

@AaronMk
Well, you should probably first bear in mind I'm not a Marxist. So if it only makes sense in that context, it's not surprising.

If it's something else I'm missing, could you please explain?
Kazapsky

Five scoops of ice cream
@tehwatever
@Kazapsky


YET, you're too bitter if you can't see that both are wiling to live under a peaceful, with no rocket fire whatsoever existence even if that means Al-Aqsa or The Wall is off limit for one or both parties. I guarantee.


This is the single most ludicrous thing you've said since I came into this thread.

Funny thing about a holy site claimed by any religion? Any solution offered that doesn't involve ready access for the faithful isn't going to stick. Most of the fighting around Israel since its formation has ultimately stemmed from some variation of "these guys are too close to OUR holy ground!" Actually, that pretty much sums up the entire history of the region.

As for Palestinians and Israelis existing as "one people" … hahahahaNO. That doesn't even work well in nations where the underlying grudge comes from a conflict that ended generations ago — nevermind last week. A one-state option implemented any time in the next couple hundred years (at the rate things are going) will collapse into a bloodbath in less than a decade.
AaronMk
Verified Pegasus - Show us your gorgeous wings!
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
A Really Hyper Artist - 500+ images under their artist tag

#Turmoil2020's
@Latecomer
@AaronMk
Well, you should probably first bear in mind I'm not a Marxist. So if it only makes sense in that context, it's not surprising.

If it's something else I'm missing, could you please explain?


You really just need to do something as simple as replace "Jew" or any invocation of the Jewish Identity with any other. There is no particular uniqueness to who the subject is. The uniqueness is only given because it's a response to an essay Marx is dismantling by Bruno Bauer about Jews. Namely that religion itself should be abolished. But as Marx points out: this is itself a contradiction in emancipation. The State declaring an identity or a religion illegal or non-existent (as say: the Japanese to the Ainu, where for a very long time the Ainu were denied their identity and everyone acted as though they were proper Yamato Japanese until very recently) merely replicates and does not absolve the fundamental conflict of The State fashioning itself to be as one group, vs those within its legal borders who do not share that.

The Civic Emancipation of the Jews (or, the Palestinians in this relevant case) is thus dependent on Isreal abandoning its identity as being a Jewish State first, as emancipation for the Jews is dependent on Germany and France abandoning their identities as being a Christian (protestant, lutheran, or catholic) State first. Or elsewhere in history and location: South Africa abandoning its identity as being a White state to emancipate the majority black population.

The next phase is the social emancipation, which is simply to end the charade of discrimination. To the Jews: to no longer perceived Jewishness as being shrewd, cunning, and so on. Apply this to anyone for negative or positive stereotypes. Blacks must no longer be seen as lazy. Whites must no longer be seen as strivers. Muslims no longer seen as backwards and violent. Repeat ad-naseum until:

Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, and because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished.


This is of course a revolutionary project to perform over time, a generation, generations. Because it has to fight with two institutions at the center of this issue being discussed: Isreal and Palestine. Both in the fashioning of their national mythos they must for one need or another create an exclusivity of the other. And this isn't something that emerges organically from the Earth, but descends from the State apparatus of either, whether it be the Isreali Government, the Palestinian Authority, or Hamas. But the defeat of them is a long-term thing. So in the meantime it does just come down to this simple logic:

Isreal is the imperialist power pressing its national mythos to make profitable gains for its sons at the expense of a defenseless people ran through the ringer and who may be materially destroyed, so we must support Palestine to the point the workers of either will overthrow either state and liquidate the entire concept of Palestine and Isreal.
CaptainXtra

El Paso Resident
@CaptainXtra
@tehwatever
I’m not sure if you heard but Pro-Palestine protests in France were being cracked down on pretty hard.

Mostly because protests related to The Israel-Palestine conflict are allegedly banned over there in croissant country.

So what you see here in this image is apparently illegal:


You know, this shouldn’t be a large surprise considering how France is kinda known for it’s not too kind stance towards Islamic Beliefs.

I mean y’all heard about that Hijab ban right?
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@AaronMk
I like it. best part is, one can still practice judaism and islam under these circumstances. the idea is to remove that "specialness" from both sides, essentially ridding even the thought of being fundamentally different to the point of needing a special place to live segregated from the other.
tehwatever
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Artist -
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.

@CaptainXtra
IMO it's prolly because a similar earlier protest turned rowdy, so they'd ban it just in case. BUT, you could, argue it's because france just doesn't like islam which I genuinely don't think to be the case. At least, they wouldn't admit it outright. Maybe in two more elections they would but as for right now, mmh.

So yeah the ban is, to me is alright. I mean I get fear of crowd just looking at that image. where are your masks, messeiurs?
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