Dishonesty in Language of Discussion

Poll results: Is the average person who enjoys art of Aryanne a Nazi?

People who like Aryanne mostly enjoy edgy humor
50.00% 63 votes
People who like Aryanne mostly like her as they would any other cute pony
39.68% 50 votes
People who like Aryanne are mostly literal Nazis
10.32% 13 votes

Poll ended with 126 votes.

Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
Principle seems to be an idea which is rapidly vanishing from public discourse. By painting the debate as “pro-Nazi” vs “anti-Nazi”, the insinuation is that anyone who doesn’t want to see Aryanne or other edgy OCs banned agrees with Nazi ideology. The reality is that the vast majority of us actually aren’t Nazis – we aren’t the ones calling for book burning, after all – we’re concerned pony fans who:
 
  • understand that freedom of expression exists specifically to protect that speech which is most offensive (you don’t need to protect free speech for popular opinions);  
  • opine that the primary purpose of Derpibooru is to serve as an archive of pony art (deleting things from an archive seems like a weird thing to do); and  
  • understand that the woke mob will not stop at Aryanne, Trump hats and Confederate flags will be next.
     
    This goes far beyond Derpibooru. We, as a people, stand at a crossroads between the ideas of Voltaire, Christopher Hitchens and Noam Chomsky – “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” – and the ideals of Trigglypuff. I implore the staff to head up a full-throated defense, not of Aryanne or Nazism or hate, but of the principle of free expression which founded liberal democracy, and against the censorious ideals of theocracies, totalitarian dictatorships, and lynch mobs throughout history.
     
    The debate, therefore, is between people in favor of Derpibooru remaining – as it always has – as an archive of the history of pony artwork, and people in favor of Derpibooru becoming a political platform for their opinions exclusively. Librarians vs book burners.
     
    In 2020, you can still buy a copy of Mein Kampf – the actual text that founded Hitler’s Nazism. You can also buy books written by Stalin, Marx, Pinochet, and all other manner of terrible people preaching terrible ideologies. It would seem to me that those books have a significant amount more potential to cause people to adopt hateful and violent ideologies than a candy-colored pony who wouldn’t be too far out of place in an episode of South Park. As far as I know, there are zero recorded incidents of anyone seeing even the most offensive depictions of Aryanne and deciding to sign up on the Daily Stormer or stock up on Zyklon B.
     
    From my (admittedly limited, as I have the tag blocked) experiences of comments on Aryanne threads, most of them are full of edgy humor. Edgy humor may not be your thing, but enjoying darker jokes doesn’t make someone a Nazi. I’m a Jew, some of the most offensive holocaust and Jew stereotype jokes I’ve heard were from other Jews. Most of us know not to take ourselves or the world so seriously as to assume that humor and memeing are hateful in intent. Mainstream TV shows like American Dad, Family Guy, South Park, The Simpsons etc have depicted discrimination by empathetic characters, that doesn’t mean the writers are in favor of it.
     
    It’s also important to understand global differences in culture. In Japan, for example, it’s not that uncommon to have empathetic Nazi characters – Schrodinger from Hellsing is the most obvious example. The Internet (and therefore Derpibooru) is global, and to enforce western norms of what is and isn’t acceptable in artistic expression – when even the west doesn’t agree on those norms – on a global community makes no sense.
     
    So, I ask you, do you honestly believe the average person who consumes art of Aryanne is a Nazi or sympathetic to National Socialism?
Cry_Havok
Wallet After Summer Sale -

It is impossible to know what another person thinks on the internet, or even in general. But to be honest, I don’t particularly care if most are just edgelord shitposters. There are Nazis in the fandom, and nazipony gives them a rallying cry. White supremacy is a real problem in the world (nazi/white supremacists make up the majority of hate crimes, targeting LGBT, POC, and Jewish communities the most), and flying that iconography, even “ironically” is much more welcoming to people who are not targeted by the ideology compared to people who are targeted.
Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
There are Nazis in any large enough sample of the human population just as there are communists, pedophiles, murderers, rapists and all manner of other undesirable people. That’s just an unfortunate side-effect of popularity. I don’t think our fandom has more undesirables than the population at large.
Cry_Havok
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Frosku
 
Obviously there are bad people everywhere, but that doesn’t mean one should host them. By and large the furry fandom for example does take a stand against faux child porn and the iconography of the third reich.
 
You can’t stop bad folk from existing, you can decide not to deal with them and not deal with the things they specifically like.
Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
Obviously there are bad people everywhere, but that doesn’t mean one should host them. By and large the furry fandom for example does take a stand against faux child porn and the iconography of the third reich.
You can’t stop bad folk from existing, you can decide not to deal with them and not deal with the things they specifically like.
 
I think it’s important to distinguish between a booru (archive) and a social network like FurAffinity. The largest furry booru, e621, has very little moderation as to what’s allowed – they only ban real-life child porn, real life beastiality, and art stolen and watermarked by a person other than the artist.
Coco
Artist -
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

pretty much everyone i’ve seen (myself included) who doesn’t want aryanne on this site doesn’t think that people who like her are nazis, what they think is that she depicts nazis (which she is), as being “cute” or “funny” or “sexy”, which further normalizes the existence nazism in society. normalizing nazis allows them to spread their hateful views in public more easily than they would have if they had not been normalized, which is a bad thing.
Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
@Coco  
The normalization of Nazism is actually the best argument I’ve heard against Aryanne, but I don’t find it very convincing for a few reasons:
 
  1. There is little to no evidence that Aryanne has been used as a recruitment tool by actual Nazis. I would imagine most Nazis would find her quite offensive because she trivializes and in many cases satirizes their political beliefs.
     
  2. The idea of ‘cute’ Nazism (as well as ‘cute’ Communism) is endemic in many cultures. Schrodinger from Hellsing is an obvious example but there are many others in anime and Eastern culture. There’s little to no reason to believe that banning a fairly obscure instance of it would have any effect on peoples’ overall exposure to Nazism or Communism, especially when they have to explicitly un-filter it to see it.
     
  3. I actually think it’s more dangerous to martyr Aryanne and turn her into a voice for free speech, because it’s telling people that a Nazi pony is the voice for freedom, which of course is contrary to everything Nazi imagery stands for. This is doubly amplified by the Streissand effect.
     
  4. This is a broader point, but I don’t think splitting the community into ‘hugbox’ types and ‘free speech’ types is healthy. We have enough polarization in the world at large, we don’t need to start doing it in our fandom too.
NsilverArts
Magnificence - Artist with 100+ Safe/Suggestive images with over 100 upvotes, and 5+ Questionable/Explicit images with over 350 upvotes
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

I have literally never seen so much smug aryanne pics and porn as i have seen these last days. On all types of discord servers, and imageboard threads and it’s not like i deliverately went looking for it. People are saving and reposting these pics whenever they can.
 
Censorship folks need to ask themselves if becoming the anti-fun karen squad that demands to speak with the manager to change the rules for the rest of the community is worth making a naughty, forbidden taboo our of a literal nazi pony. You have to understand plenty of us here are fully grown adults and we don’t exactly need our minds protected, and we don’t exactly enjoy being intruded with and told what’s good for us. The idea that you can just censor a whole concept into nonexistance on the age of the fucking internet is frankly hilarious, i’m sorry.
 
I know it’s being said that these measures will only affect nazi imagery to an extend i frankly still don’t know, probably not a big deal, but if you ask me i have literally no reason to trust the admin/mod staff at this point. I’ll probably just angrypost some more and i’ll go wherever the “channers” are. And i’ll probably come back to laugh at this site if and when they start extending to “hate-speech and bigotry” or whatever that happens to mean that week.
Cry_Havok
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Frosku
 
Particularly to respond to point3: That’s not how it works. Some of the more notorious far-right folks that have been utterly unrepentant in their tomfoolery HAVE been de-platformed from Youtube and Twitter, and have been ruined for it. Removing something from the broader sphere doesn’t martyr it, it gives it less attention and it becomes largely forgotten after time.
Angius

The Ponut Eater
which further normalizes the existence nazism in society. normalizing nazis allows them to spread their hateful views in public more easily than they would have if they had not been normalized, which is a bad thing.
 
And violent movies normalize violence.  
And half of the porn on Derpi normalizes zoophilia.  
And another half normalizes pedophilia.  
And a big chunk normalizes rape.  
And yet another normalizes body mutiliation.  
And there are some that normalize genital mutiliation.  
And most Starlight art normalizes communism.
 
Huh, it seems we should just delete 90% of the art on this site, and leave only poorly-drawn feet pics.
Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
@Cry_Havok  
And then you have people like Alex Jones, Paul J Watson, Steven Crowder etc who have turned their de-platforming into widespread notoriety and greater success than they’d ever seen before. It’s a double-edged sword at best.
Crade
Hard Work - Merited Perfect Pony Plot Provider badge with only their own art
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
The Power of Love - Made a piece of artwork loved by 1000 users
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

Find me on Ponybooru
Good post.
 
I doubt you will convince anyone. some people are very sensitive to nazi imagery, because of the fear-mongering by media and politicians.
 
Nazis were not white supremacist, they were german supremacist. It was less a caucasian thing, and more a german ethnicity thing. But these terms get conflated so they mean the same thing, when they are not.
 
And because people are scares of white supremacy, even though there is real racism and supremacy ideologies going around that are completely ignored, they go after the edgy content inside pony, thinking that they are “doing their part” to help fight white supremacy.
 
The reason they even believe in this radicalization meme is because they dont actually understand what white supremacy is and how it spreads.
Cammera
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
Wallet After Summer Sale -
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

Undesirable
People like this always wants to control the discourse else they scorch the earth. They’ll refuse to call it anything but bad word association to validate themselves. The worse thing one can do is let them affect one’s discourse, the more it is apparent how detached their words are from the actual discussion the better.
Background Pony #C5FE
I think it would be fair to assume that the average person who enjoys Aryanne art at a minimum enjoys images of nazi propaganda and symbology. That’s just logic. If they didn’t, they would prefer a pony without a swastika on it. You can extrapolate from that whatever you want. It also seems safe to assume that you’ll find more extremists among a group that enjoys nazi symbols vs a group that doesn’t enjoy such symbols.
Seiken
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Artist -

Besides being a huge insult to call the Anti-Censorship Party Pro Nazi is that it also is a cheap political trick to drag your opponent through the mud, calling them something they are not, painting a false narrative.
 
Usually a trick from people that have weak arguments, so they depend on making the opposite look bad to try to push their cause.
Cammera
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
Wallet After Summer Sale -
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

Undesirable
I think it would be fair to assume that the average person who enjoys Aryanne art at a minimum enjoys images of nazi propaganda and symbology.
 
False equivalence.  
That’s just logic.
 
Funny how “Logic” has become a meme used by people who don’t want to elaborate on what they say because it’d show how dumb their argument is  
If they didn’t, they would prefer a pony without a swastika on it
 
Or they’re not thin skinned and reactionary and enjoy art on its own merits.
Frosku
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Artist -
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)

Vox Exercitus
@Background Pony #C5FE  
Have you stopped to consider that a lot of us who are defending freedom of expression do prefer ponies without swastikas on them? Again, and I basically wrote the whole OP about this, freedom of expression is not needed for ideas upon which we agree, it is needed for ideas which are controversial.
Seiken
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Artist -

@Aponty  
Sure it does, maybe the option you seek isn’t on there, but especially is the last option is something people have pushed.
 
So maybe just suggest what kinda option you are missing.
Background Pony #40DA
@NsilverDraws  
It needs to be pointed out that this debate isn’t between people who want Nazi content to be censored and people who oppose censorship on principle. It’s between people who want Nazi content to be censored, people who oppose censorship on principle, and also actual fascists.
 
The response that we’re seeing is absolutely being manipulated to some extent by fascists acting in bad faith. To what extent I don’t know, but this is too significant for them to not want to get involved.
 
I’ve seen people claim that there are in fact no fascists whatsoever on Derpibooru, which is so logically and statistically absurd that I can’t see it as anything other than a manufactured fascist talking point.
Barhandar
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab

(twi|pony)booru.org
@Background Pony #40DA  
If you think about it, it would be beneficial for real nazis to support banning “nazi” content, as it removes focus of attention from them, lets them claim nazism is banned, and in general crypto it up.
Background Pony #40DA
@Barhandar  
Actually getting it banned wouldn’t serve them at all, they want to be part of the community so that they can recruit from within it. They could theoretically pretend to be anti-Nazi in order to make strawman arguments, but I haven’t really seen anything yet that could match that.
Background Pony #1166
@Coco
 
@Background Pony #C5FE
 
@Cry_Havok
 
I completely agree with these three. I just cannot see any reasonable way to justify any sort of Nazi fanart. It’s extremely disturbing to see so many people not see the problem woobifying nazis.i guess I would be fine with it if they could show some respect and restraint, but in my experience they haven’t. The Aryanne fans draw porn of her and use her as a mouthpiece to counter other mouthpieces they don’t like (usually the ones you would expect a Nazi to hate, like BLM or trans people), and defend all images of her as a joke, as if making jokes about genocide is a defense.  
All in all, the people who aren’t Nazis but like Aryanne stuff have done nothing to demonstrate that they’re not Nazis despite willingly associating with Nazi imagery and ideas in ways that at best could be described as disrespectful and uncritical.
NsilverArts
Magnificence - Artist with 100+ Safe/Suggestive images with over 100 upvotes, and 5+ Questionable/Explicit images with over 350 upvotes
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

@Background Pony #40DA
 
Said fascists would also agree with me in that 2 + 2 = 4. Getting what i’m going with this? I’m simply stating an observation regardless of who would agree with me.
 
I have personally never seen Derpibooru as a page in which people are systematically funneled towards fascism in any significant manner. And i simply find it kind of silly that it would involve seeing pics of Aryanne. I am yet to see solid evidence of this taking place.
 
But let’s suppose it is true. I’m afraid the anti-fun gang absolutely blew Aryanne out of proportion and exposed many many people to her with this stunt, while getting some others’ bad side by fixing something that wasn’t really considered broken (Derpibooru). You’re done becoming the soccer moms everyone else wants to disobey. And you’ll have to carry on, Because i just don’t think removing the edgy windmill from the mare’s flank is gonna do much to prevent people with two neurons to rub together from catching the gimmick.
Interested in advertising on Derpibooru? Click here for information!
Ministry of Image - Fanfiction Printing

Help fund the $15 daily operational cost of Derpibooru - support us financially!

Syntax quick reference: **bold** *italic* ||hide text|| `code` __underline__ ~~strike~~ ^sup^ %sub%

Detailed syntax guide