Downvotes / Hiding Survey

@Joey  
Whatever dude, you have my opinion, do with it what you will.
 
Have a nice thread.

@Cosoca
 
Hmmm good question. Well one point of downvotes as well as upvotes and the calculated score of both gives search parameters. I guess that’s one thing that they work together in concert to do that I can think of.
 
IE. a separate search parameter from upvotes alone. Thereby making 3 vote based search parameters with upvotes, downvotes, and calculated score.
 
So I guess they are useful as search tools at least.

@Durabiznik  

 
Wrong. That is exactly the point of the rating system. It is supposed to recommend work based on its quality, not on the particularities of taste of the douchebags who don’t like the subject matter. Nor on how many bored, edgy teenagers were sent home from school with a case of pubic lice on the day the picture was posted, and had fun downvoting things. Only the genuine opinions on rating the image actually have value in an system about rating the image.

@Joey
 
When will the survey end?  
And it is really interesting for me if participants here are the most loud ones or they are just expressing majority opinion.

@Cryosite  
Removing DNP is never gonna be an option. We don’t like it much when someone requests to go DNP either, but ultimately, it is their artwork, and if they do not wish for it to be on this website, then we respect those wishes.
 
If you have concerns about the site’s moderation or policies, please direct them to either myself or TSP. We’re both pretty easy to get ahold of (PM, Email, IRC, etc). Generally I handle the bulk of ban/deletion appeals, and if someone/something’s being over-moderated, I’ll resolve it fairly.

@Cryosite  

 
I’m sorry some artists want restrictions over their art being posted here?  
Also, deleting comments that say “this image is shit” is not tyrannical comment moderation.

@Ferrotter  
That was very oddly specific stuff you just said. I assume you know from very personal experience?

@Stooped_hooy  
I believe the plan is to end it six days from now

@Ferrotter
 
And what can you say about low-quality upvoted works?

@Joey  
I had a friend who downvotes only certain species of ponies, like plane ponies as soon as he sees them he downvotes em.

@blackamor  
He needs to stop doing that and filter the tag instead. If we catch him doing that, it’s an instant ban and all downvotes wiped.

I agree with the downvote removal, there’s people who don’t have maturity to use the downvote right for what it was intended for, instead of giving a feedback to the artist to let it know there was something lacking on the art, and adding some constructive comments (something like happened to me), it would be nice, but lately there’s few people creating multiple accounts just to spam art pieces with downvotes just because they don’t like the artist personally, so there’s two options I might give to consider:
 

@Klavinova
 
Some people even mentioned downvoting for missing tags.  
How should I know if it is because of the tag I may have missed during tagging?

@Stooped_hooy  
Not sure, I mean, the downvote should have a justification, not just because the most irrelevant reasons tho
 
I mean, if there’s a missing tag, you can add it? There’s no big deal, I mean, I have ONLY downvoted to some grotesque and really cruel pics, which also are often in a bad quality, then I can totally say “I don’t like that”

@Stooped_hooy  
To be honest, I don’t even know all the tags that I’m supposed to add to my uploads.

I use downvote statistics in search queries and learning reception of my art, to learn what users like and what don’t.
 
I suggest the following:  

@xbi  
I like this. Very sensible.
 
 
@★Dark Star  
Yes, everyone on this site has had personal experience with douchebags downvoting things because they don’t like the subject matter (many of them admitting as much in this thread), and with juvenile, bored edgelords thinking it’s cool to downvote pictures at random just to screw with the tags. Among many other things that have nothing to do with whether a picture is good or bad. Why is that at all surprising that I’ve seen it too?
 
@Stooped_hooy  
A “bad” image upvoted a lot only means (maybe) that some people appreciated it. Art is not defined by “it took me x many hours to do” or “the vagina is anatomically correct for a horse.” There are art styles that are realistic, even photorealistic, others that are impressionistic, some that are simplistic. Collage is an art style, as is sculpture, and photography. Painting is not more art than pencil or charcoal, nor is electronic art less. Art is about a shorthand transmission of emotion through the senses. A beautiful picture is not more art than a horrible one. One I can clop to is not better or worse than one I can show at work. It’s all about the emotion the artist seems to be going for, and how well it succeeds at conveying that.
 
If the artist is going for disgust, then a disgusting picture is quality art, a pretty picture is lousy art, and a really nauseating picture is wonderful art. If the artist is going for humor, especially insult comedy, then a really simplistic and deliberately poor picture may well be a wonderful attempt at it. If a lot of people get that intent, and find it funny enough to upvote, it’s good art, it’s successful at conveying the artist’s intent. So a lousy picture may sometimes be upvoted legitimately because it’s not lousy art.
 
And yes, sometimes edgelords will upvote shit for lulz in addition to downvoting nice things. But while that also screws with the tags and tells the artist and community nothing useful, at least that doesn’t have the double whammy of also flinging poo at the artist for no good reason.

Ive seen downvotes on every good image, I have a feeling this is like youtube where people just run around and do nothing but downvote or dislike.

Ah, this old topic. I wasn’t even a moderator yet when Wingbeat first took a crack at the problem.  
Here’s what I think after this being in the back of my mind for a few years and having to debate it at-length again:
 
So, basically, yes, it’s okay to not like things, but don’t be a dick about it. Now, downvotes aren’t inherently dickish, are they? No, they’re just ambiguous. A downvote can mean anything from “I dislike the style” to “I hope you die” to “I don’t like Sonic” to “The anatomy is bad”; a downvote is kind of like saying “It sucks.” in a comment and nothing more.  
We don’t allow comments like that, because the ambiguity and negativity make some people mad. …but we made a button called downvote that does the exact same thing. I think that was a mistake.  
We can (mostly) sort out bad comments done out of spite from others. Doing the same for votes requires we look at a lot of information that isn’t shown to others (which means that people can’t even easily report it to us).
 
Anyways, fixing mistakes is unfortunately hard.  
I think the best fix that is realistic is to require a reasoning to downvotes in the form of an associated comment. I think it’s better for upvotes too, and the survey doesn’t cover that, but maybe that isn’t really required.

@Klavinova  
You are aware not all criticism is constructive, some critics are harsher than others and some would fall into what is known as “asshole” territory here.
 
Some critics will only point out your flaws, finding going over what’s good to be unnecessary, as what’s good doesn’t need improvement so why mention it? Other than sugar coating their words it provides nothing.
 
But you see, the issue here is with your final line, we cannot have a responsible fan-art site for as long as the fandom is so batshit paranoid about negativity. Constructive or not, criticism is commonly met with the artist whining their eyes out or a mob of fans coming to defend said artist or even subject. Before we tackle “how people might use the little red down-arrow meanly!!1!1” we need to focus, as a whole, and getting the fandom to accept negativity better. I would much rather have an “If you see someone you disagree with in the comments, you may start a discussion, but don’t turn it into a shitshow. Period. (Doesn’t matter if they like it or not)” rule much more than a vague as fuck “Be nice” rule for a “Rule 0” of an art site. Of course, there would be things like “Don’t post a dozen comments on one image about how much you hate it (unless it’s in discussion with other users on the image.)” As well, just to keep things balanced.
 
When I can watch the fandom collectively shit itself because a fanfic didn’t use “insert popular ship here” and instead used “other ship here.” No matter the fanfic’s actual quality, they flip out because it’s something different.
 
But back to criticism, let’s say I’m reviewing Darkest Dungeon, in front of Red Hook themselves. What’s the point in mentioning how good the art style is, or the themes of the human psyche, (unless asked my thoughts) when it’s blatantly evident that they’re done well? Should I sugar-coat it with a bunch of praise before going on about how bullshit The Collector’s add-spawns are? No. I would spend more time on what they did wrong as that’s where they need improvement.
 
Now that’s not to say that mentioning good things is necessarily bad or shouldn’t be done. But we’ve got this idea in our heads (the fandom) that “Constructive Criticism” means sucking the artist’s dick for two hours, telling them how good it is, before telling them what they did wrong for thirty seconds.
 
I’m not a talkative person, I’m not even that friendly of a person. That doesn’t mean I’m rude, cruel or generally impolite, I’m quite polite when out in public and even when people come over, I’m just “aloof” if you will, but I will speak my mind and I will speak it truthfully and bluntly. So, in turn, this leads me in between a rock and a hard spot because yes, sometimes my comments can be as blatant as “What the fuck is this?” Other times it can be as verbose and long as this forum post. And when I do criticize, I will focus more on their shortcomings, not to be mean, not to be cruel or try to demotivate them from making further work, but because that’s where they need improvement. For example: “Well I really like the colours, especially the shades of purple used, and the composition is wonderful. But the linework is choppy which leads to unfortunate things like [a good dozen or so lines explaining where to improve.]” Now I could be really sweet with it, but more often than not I’m going to be blunt about it, I might slip a joke in there every so often for the sake of lightening the mood, especially if I’m approaching a sensitive topic soon.
 
Now there are also times in which I will go hog-wild on someone, usually this is when I see something that goes from “Just badly made” to “Absolutely disgusting” material, for writing references, think of something like that Clockwork creepypasta from a while back. One of the quickest ways to piss me off is to use a serious topic half-assedly, hence why “Rape” is a spoilered tag of mine. Most MLP art doesn’t use the topic tactfully in my eyes.
 
However my style of criticism is seen as “mean” to most people because I focus on the negative. But I ask you and everyone here this: What is the point of criticism? To help an artist improve. And how can we properly criticize something if the slightest bit of negativity is treated like the apocalypse?
 
In conclusion and back to the original topic, I think the fandom would appreciate it more if I simply clicked a little arrow rather than going into blunt detail about what I think the piece did wrong, even if I’m pointing these things in the hope that the artist will listen and try to improve. Or even worse have someone get to that meter of “Fuck ’em” and have me unload my entire, bitter mind onto them. I dunno I think the score going 1 number lower would be appreciated far more.
 
 
TL;DR: The fandom needs a maturity check on dealing with negativity before we worry about the effects of someone clicking on a little red arrow.

So many people are so quick to jump on removing the downvote button, yet not saying the same for the upvote button. You can’t only have one of them, it’s either both or none.

@TexasUberAlles  

 
I find it frankly bizarre that we’re seriously discussing ways to skew a neutral rating system (that is already seeing an overwhelming use of the upvote in favor of the downvote) to prevent “expressions of negativity.” It’s like I died and woke up in some kind of nightmarish postmodern social experiment.
 
The most grotesque moment so far was when Ferrotter spoke his mind that “[downvotes are] basically a license to violate rule 0.”
 
@Ferrotter  

 
No. A +1/-1 system with every user being allowed to vote can never, ever be the kind of system you’re making it out to be, unless you plan on becoming God and policing the thoughts of every voter to weed out anyone who doesn’t meet your subjective criteria for “judging art for its quality instead of being a cranky-wanky meanie-weenie and flinging feces all around you because you’re an evil person who hates fun.”

@Ferrotter
 
Well, you obviously missed some artists if you are talking about “styles”.  
And I haven’t said “bad”, I’ve said “low-quality”. Like shitty lines, crooked limbs, blurry shadows, one pose for everything, etc.  
It’s another side of the question - when upvotes are not objective at all.

@★Dark Star  

 
Really? From the looks of it more people are in favor of it staying.

@★Dark Star  
My experience so far in this thread has been that the people saying “downvotes are completely useless, get rid of them” have invariably either a) read nothing of the thread or any of the threads prior, or b) inadvertently confessed to or demonstrated exactly the sorts of behavior we’re trying to mitigate.
 
I don’t like stereotyping, but it’s awfully hard not to pick up on a pattern like that.