I am ANTI-CENSORSHIP. Change my mind.

YourPalContrail
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I have seen 1 major problem in the ongoing discussion over the recent derpibooru policy; people keep to their “in” group on either 4-chan or Twitter. In this thread im hoping to have calm discussion on our belifs to lower the animosity towards eachother and maybe change some minds. Other people are welcome to join in. Keep in mind this is not a debate forum, just a thread to rationalize and discuss our point of view
 
Some simple thread rules-
 
  1. Keep it civil
     
  2. Avoid dogpiling simply so we dont ostracize anyone. I dont want another echochamber.
     
    Check back to see any rule changes just to keep things calm
Background Pony #E698
>people keep to their “in” group on either 4-chan or Twitter.  
no one should tag one self for anything but it seems that certain people are willing to go in groups and not criticize their own decisions.
 
Normally Twitter applies this more than 4chan because you cannot have a hivemind in the latter that follows a uniform direction while Twitter not only allows that but also ENCOURAGES that behavior with the likes, retweets and the system of following others, preventing any room of critical thought or reflections that dig into a depth of self-criticism.
 
The words depends on who you are and have more value if you have an army of followers that alienate with your thoughts. On 4chan you cannot have that and your words can be equally discredited without taking into account who you are.
 
The biggest mistake of those who are unfamiliar with the chan system is by believing that they are “one” person who dictates the actions as a group.
MangoFoalix
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@Skoon  
Correct. Most people can say whatever the hell they want usually without fear for repercussions since they anonymous. Don’t think I’ve ever saw an “echo chamber” there.
Background Pony #4808
@Skoon  
>Echo chambers seem nearly impossible with that rough chan current.  
If only it was that easy.  
But yeah, it’s at least harder than elsewhere.
InvisibleInkDoodles
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Admittedly I do use Twitter but not 4Chan, Don’t really understand 4Chan (don’t think it’s for me). Haven’t really used Derpi forums that much till recently either, didn’t even really know they were a thing. But yeah, the best way to counter someones point is with strong arguments not strong arming, which both Twitter and 4Chan have had issues with. Daily on Twitter I see loads of talking but not much listening.
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@InvisibleInkDoodles  
There has definitely been far too many people talking without speaking and hearing without listening the past few weeks.
 
If this keeps up soon the only thing anyone will find on here is the sound …of silence.
Skygunner
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Discussion……………
 
Fine. The term anti-censorship is like saying “pro-life” when talking about abortion. it’s a spin on what the underlying issue of the other side is. Don’t worry that’s a different can of worms beyond this post. Point is, it’s a loaded statment that does muddy the waters about what this is about.
 
Because it’s not about censorship at all.
 
It’s about giving hate speech a platform
 
And that’s it. That’s the end of the argument. It boils down to people who see this is a clearly defined black and white issue (anti-nazi), and people who see a warm fuzzy grey area (anti-censorship)
 
And yes, I did say the “anti-nazi” side, which implies the other side is pro-nazi. “oh but that’s a loaded statement!” No, it’s not. Anything that supports Nazism in a positive light. is giving it a platform. It’s saying “this is OK” That is what is so Egregious about Aryanne. She doesn’t have to be saying anything, her mere presence implies that the brony fandom tolerates here.
 
That’s why there was an Atlanatic article written about bronies, about derpi, saying there’s a problem. There is.
 
It doesn’t matter if it’s, “for the lolz” , or “edgy humour” or “my freedom of speech”. So here’s the primary tenant of the argument.
 
 
“Giving hate speech a pass, means that people who actually use hate speech, can use it unchecked”
 
 
“oh you can just filter it” - NOT THE POINT. That is an argument easily countered with “and if you want to see it now that it’s taboo here, go to any of the other websites that allow it”
 
 
I’m inclined to believe most people on the “anti-censorship” side. Aren’t actually racists, or nazi’s, or anything. Problem is however, that their ambivalence toward the matter allows for actual nazi’s, racists, what-have-you’s to post their crap. Without a clearly defined difference between the two…how is anyone supposed to know who is actually suporting nazism/racism, and who is just doing it to be edgy.
 
 
There is no clear way, ergo anyone who does it, is branded supporting it.
 
 
There’s a Mitchell and webb sketch that addresses this lack of distinction between ironically doing something, and actually doing something.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ss-59fi4nM
 
 
So there ya go. That’s the “other side” of the argument.
 
 
And this is where it becomes thorny. For the “anti-censorship” side, they use a logical fallacy called Slippery Slope, in order to make it about more than just nazis. “Oh, oh they’re coming for foalcon next” I personally would be okay with that getting banned. however, it’s not. I’d imagine as long as no one writes an article in a semi-major news paper saying “bronies like jerking it to underage cartoon horses” then probably wont come after the foalcon, or the rape, the borderline physcotic stuff people make, and all the other things people post on this site.
 
Truthfully, Hate Speech is clerly defined, nazism and its support is clearly defined. This is soley about removing its platform. Nothing more.
 
 
Any argument against “nazi’s are bad” will unilaterally be one of “nazi’s are good” Changing that black and white issue to a grey one. “Nazi’s are bad, but freedom of speech” “Nazi’s are bad, but I like this horses tits” “Nazis are bad but traditionally we were allowed to post it”
 
It’s not grey. And this brings us to the final point of this word salad. “It’s not a debate”
 
It’‘s a lot of people who don’t like a thing, vs a few people who do, having to deal with it. “Oh!!! You can’t prove that”
 
Actually yes I can. Just look at how many people DNP’d the server and submitted takedowns of all their work when the site said they’d ban nazis. and how many people did it when they said Nazi’s were ok again.
 
 
There’s no argument here anymore. There’s only 1 side which is literally the modern worlds take on nazism and hate speech, and another side which is supporting nazism and hate speech.
 
 
Sorry, I would love to debate this. Debate is good, it’s how dialogue happens, but this is one of those things that isn’t up for debate, becaus it’s not a grey issue. You either support hate speech, or you don’t.
Boxless

stop using Derpi lmao
@Skygunner  
I will now point you to this video as this point has been argued to death for slightly shorter than Pony has been around.
 
tl;dr if you’re too lazy to watch it: SUPPORT IS NOT AGREEMENT.
 
You should have just filtered, my dude. Nahtsee horse has been around for over half a decade, and only now are people making a fuss… gee, i wonder why.
YourPalContrail
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@Skygunner
 
Happy to have you here! First id like to tackle some root things so we can build frome there. Fist what is hate speech. Second it appears that you have the assumption that i am pro-nazi. Why is that?
Skygunner
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@Boxless  
Thank you. that is indeed a video. It indeed says that. So while I put that 40 minutes, holy hell on in the background to digest the infromation it says and see if they are indeed attempting to make a valid point or if they’re just a wanker, allow me to post a more established thing that says “support is agreement”
 
 
It wont’ even taken you 40 minutes to get though it, and it’s not just some dude on youtube saying it. It’s actual war crimes, against nazis!!!! Who were proven to have been supporting nazism by doing nothing about it.
 
The rest of your post is a moot point.
cdpaliden
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Skygunner  
Let me reply succinctly, you are wrong. You are so wrong YOU are promoting totalitarianism. What does history show? That squashing political ideals only increases their allure - it makes them the under-dog, the oppressed and people love that shit. You do not fight the authoritarian with their own weapons - censorship - but with your own voice. Make it clear they are not wanted here. In the case of Derpibooru, down-vote their images til the cows come home.
 
You know who says there is “no debate”? The authoritarians. The totalitarians. Those opposed to the principle of freedom of speech and expression. If you believe there is no debate, I hate to tell you this, but you ARE the very people you claim to hate…you just don’t realize it yet.
Boxless

stop using Derpi lmao
@Skygunner  
Ah yes, wikipedia, a source that can be edited by anyone.
 
And you called the post saying things would have been just fine moot. Lmao. Enjoy the purity spiral my dude, you certainly earned it.
Skygunner
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@cdpaliden  
Cool, I can see how you think that. I can also say pretty strongly that you’ve failed to convince me that I’m a totalitarian asshole by calling me a Totalitarian asshole. It’s not a debate in the same way that you don’t argue about what colour a stop sign is.
 
Happy to have you here! First id like to tackle some root things so we can build frome there. Fist what is hate speech. Second it appears that you have the assumption that i am pro-nazi. Why is that?
 
I’m going to assume that you’re asking your first point more so you can have a neat checkbox of what is and isn’t hate speech. So I’ll bite on that and go with the good ol dictionary definition “Hate speech is defined by Cambridge Dictionary as “public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation”.”
 
 
For the second point, if you support nazi imagery on this site…you are pro-nazi. I’m not saying you’re a Nazi, but by giving them a microphone to express their hate, you are supporting them. It’s really that simple. IF you disagree with it, stop supporting nazis.
 
 
I understand this is awfully blunt, but this is the other side of the argument, and I’m not going to wade though dozens of people trying to nitpick into the grey, So let me repeat
 
“Nazis = Bad”
 
 
@Boxless  
@Skygunner
Ah yes, wikipedia, a source that can be edited by anyone.
And you called the post saying things would have been just fine moot. Lmao. Enjoy the purity spiral my dude, you certainly earned it.
 
Yep, that sure is what wikipediea is. I’m sorry you fail to understand how to use online resources correctly.
 
As for the video you linked, I’ve had it on on for about 18 minutes, Have since turned it off, I disagree with the points that he is attempting to make as they are ill-conceived, not substantiated with real world experience or anything really.
 
So sorry that your counterargument is “wikipedia bad” but that’s about what I expected. IF it makes you feel better, this post really isn’t for you it’s for the people reading this conversation hi people I’ve no doubt that I won’t be convincing you of anything.
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@cdpaliden  
there is no debate because allowing nazism to have a platform (that is, a public space to espouse their disgusting beliefs) is implicitly allowing for the spread of propaganda that calls for the murder of myself and my community. you cannot control how someone responds to propaganda, you can control whether it is there in the first place.
 
as someone who would’ve been slaughtered and thrown in the mass graves that the nazis dug, i have no qualms in saying that there is no middle ground in preventing genocide.
Boxless

stop using Derpi lmao
@Skygunner  
My original point is arguing for free speech from a human rights position, but you already jumped past that with the BUT, and at that point you will be so bullheaded as to continue pushing for a totalitarian system to try and prevent a totalitarian system.
 
‘Oh Irony’ indeed.
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Too tired to care
My two cents have boiled down to this:
 
I dislike imagery that makes light of and gleefully depicts acts of real world racial genocide. Most of that is already gone or on its way out.
 
Aryanne herself simply existing does not offend me as much as I thought it did initially. On the contrary, I think she can be a vehicle for legitimate humor, particularly where she is a hopeless crazy person and the butt of the joke. Some of her “thread lore” is interesting.
 
Aryanne as a character is almost too flexible, and varying sorts of people will utilize her differently. Some distastefully, others not so much. However, that doesn’t set her too far apart from many other characters; the only difference is that her cutie mark stands out. Ultimately, she’s no more an icon of evil than King Sombra, it’s just that she has a far more blatant visual bridge to real history so people notice it to a greater degree.
 
Where my heart skipped a beat and switched gears against removing her outright was based mostly on when I saw “my side” wringing it’s hooves and cackling about foalcon next, then rape, then incest… har har har. It did happen, it was not a fallacy. Further, doxxing and trying to suspend patreons is disgusting behavior in my eyes no matter who does it.
 
You may not like foalcon or rape or incest in art, but that doesn’t give somebody the right to crusade against it because they’re offended. Likewise the “grooming” allegations are highly suspicious to me in regards to grand exaggeration. Further, going down the “remove this because feelings” rabbit hole is what killed Tumblr.
 
Removing anything that depicts or relates to rape would remove Naughty Luna. Anything that offends on gender issues would potentially remove a large portion of my work, but most certainly “sissy king Sombra”. Removing foalcon would take with it my off-color Cheerilee archives. Removing incest would, well you get the picture. I would have been shooting myself in the foot.
 
The other aspect of my feelings on this are, “wait, I’ve always been an edgy artist so why am I being dishonest with myself now?” That’s when I had an epiphany that investing emotionally into Twitter has done me nearly no good, but that’s another tale for another time.
 
As simple an argument as people may wish this to be, it simply isn’t simple. Not from my perspective.
 
That’s about all I am gonna say about it. From here out I’d like to get on with life.
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Since 1 already came up here @Skygunner (and I haven’t even gotten through the whole post yet), I’m gonna post this:  
10 Stupid Arguments Against Free Speech  
Timestamps:  
4:44 1. Support is Not Agreement  
8:30 2. Criticism is NOT Anti-Free Speech  
13:31 3. You Just Want Freedom From Consequences  
21:16 4. The BUT  
21:33 5. Mr. Fascist, Please Save Me From The Fascists  
22:39 6. Oh Irony  
24:42 7. The Victim 180  
26:42 8. You Have The Right To Remain Offended  
27:31 9. The Empty Room Fallacy  
29:50 10. Private Companies Can Do What They Want
 
they use a logical fallacy called Slippery Slope, in order to make it about more than just nazis.
There’s also the fallacy fallacy.
YourPalContrail
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@Skygunner
 
No its just so we can get our definitions straight. I mean whats the point in discussing is we think it means 2 different things ya know?
 
But its interesting that you say that it expresses hate or encourages violence. I only say that because encouraging acts of violence is illegal. Its the old adage “you cant shout fire in a crowded theater” if theres no fire because its a call to action.
 
And second to clarify i do not support nazis at all. So yes i agree with you nazis are bad, its that simple lol. All im advocating for is freedom of speech on this site and freedom of expression.
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