Patreon Pledge Removal Thread

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #F4D0

without even suggesting anything real?

“Fucking backtrack to how rules were at that specific point and kick out all the staff who ~~want to enforce~~ enforce unilaterally despite any and all opposition and disagreement other versions, including, but not limited to, pro-BLM” is a perfectly real thing. That y’all insist on going only forwards doesn’t make it any less real.

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Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #F112

@Princess Celestia
You’ll never win. The only thing you can do is keep what little shred of dignity you have, take responsibility and actually bloody listen to the community. In life, you’re not always dealt with the best of cards, but you’ll have to make do with that you have.

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Digiqrow

On Ponybooru

@Background Pony #F112
Also, oops I clicked anon. Bloody button is too close to the “post” button.

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Background Pony #9AC6

Raptor is simply the only one that got along well with 4chan folk.

‘4chan folk’ here.
Do you know why that is?

Raptorshy listened.
She might not have agreed, she might have thought the majority of anons were idiots, but she actually listened and was trying to accommodate concerns instead of placate them.
And then on top of that actually stuck to her guns and quit instead of rolling over and accepting TSP’s ultimatum like the rest of you appear to have done.

The clearest thing in the feedback thread is that the mod staff as a whole (Because we dont know individual opinions except for Lightning bolt here, so exclude yourself from this) dont give two shits.
You’re not trying to fix things, you are trying to control damage and stubbornly refusing to deviate from your course despite the overwhelming feedback.
Mod staff want to delete things, fine, i dont like it but i can compromise so long as it’s consistent and fair and my feedback reflects this.
Unfortunately, every bit of feedback given has been used to twist the rules further, ignoring what the community that is actively talking to you wants in favour of your own vision, possibly influenced by Twitter, TSP or simply your own bias, i dont know or care about the source of this stubbornness.
And that’s fine, you can have your own vision for the site and want it to be a certain way.
But you have no right to complain when other people dont agree with you and ask you to reconsider, and then get pissed when you dont actually listen to what they’re saying.

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Background Pony #F4D0

“Fucking backtrack to how rules were at that specific point and kick out all the staff who ~~want to enforce~~ enforce unilaterally despite any and all opposition and disagreement other versions, including, but not limited to, pro-BLM” is a perfectly real thing. That y’all insist on going only forwards doesn’t make it any less real.

So you’re proposing to ignore significant part of a userbase completely, only to please another part of a userbase, which cannot accept anything and refuses to understand it. Well done, what a nice and detailed awareness of the situation you have.
You’re not only you specifically failing to see, that current rule #0 proposal is a just a more explained part of same rule, which exists and applies for a years. You’re failing to see, that all images, proposed for deletion in the latest poll, violates old rules, which just hadn’t enforced as needed. Why the fuck do you all boil over that we don’t listen to you, if you cannot listen us as well?

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Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #9AC6

@Background Pony #F4D0

Why the fuck do you all boil over that we don’t listen to you, if you cannot listen us as well?

Here’s a hint, you focused on the guy wanting the extreme and assumed everyone on ‘his side’ had that stance and not the guy who would accept and has been trying to work towards a fair compromise.

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #F4D0
The “userbase” being ignored is Twitter’s userbase, not Derpibooru’s. Majority of Derpi’s userbase is unaware, and larger portion of the aware minority is in favor of rolling everything back.
And I, personally, will gladly discard the “userbase” that calls me, my friends, and many others ‘nazis’, ‘fascists’, etc for refusing to bend over to them, attacked and is slandering Derpi directly, and has proven time and time again that they are unwilling to have rational discourse.

P.S. The staff polls and their general hoop-jumping about ACAB, communism, etc have proven, and keep proving, that the issue is indeed binary: either the rules censor nothing, or they will be bent into extremely blatant bias. The only difference is whether the rules as written let them pretend they’re not biased (the proposals and the previous state, hence “TSP get out”; and with the tyrants out, there is no reason to make up new wording for the rules) or outright state they’re biased (if anyone would have the cojones to admit it and put their foot down).

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evan555alpha

PSA: R0 was changed!

@Barhandar
Well, your user title does say that you’re literally Hitler. 6.66 of them in fact. :^)

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Background Pony #F4D0

@Background Pony #9AC6
In my opinion “the guy wanting the extreme and assumed everyone on ‘his side’” won’t be satisfied in any way, so I don’t believe we’re focusing on him much. Issue is that there are 2 these “guys” on the opposite sides, and both are giving equivalent headache right now.
I’m not a fan of censorship, and many, many of the mods not as well. And at the same time I’m not so naive to believe, that just plain “reverting” will solve anything (and not so naive to believe, that you all will stop magically remind sins of the past, all realizations of which stopped exist for more than a week).

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@evan555alpha
Every single male is 6.66 Hitlers on average whenever they ejaculate at all, according to the enlightened leftists, for ejaculation (prompted by pictures of Aryanne) is a genocide of all of your potential offspring, of which there is 40 million per, and only a scant few will ever get into an egg cell :^)

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GreyGears

Virtually real pony.

@Background Pony #F4D0

ignore significant part of a userbase completely, only to please another part of a userbase

Please go check the community poll at least once : those two parts are really not equal.
Unless you are the kind of people who consider that democracy is a bad system ?

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Background Pony #F4D0

The “userbase” being ignored is Twitter’s userbase, not Derpibooru’s.

Ain’t you a Ponybooru “userbase” and not Derpi’s then?

And I, personally, will gladly discard the “userbase” that calls me, my friends, and many others ‘nazis’, ‘fascists’, etc

Ha, I believe, I’ll be called these words as well. Well, you know, I don’t ever try to reason radical part (it’s impossible), but at least adequate part, which is capable of listening and understanding things on their own, and I’m proposing changes which focus on explaining and not just “prohibit everything”. It’s clear thing that our current rules fails this aspect.

@GreyGears

Please go check the community poll at least once : those two parts are really not equal.

I know results, you’re proposing to ignore 30-40% of voted users. It’s not a 5-10% part, which can be mostly ignored.

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Background Pony #9AC6

@Background Pony #F4D0

On one side you have
People who want full reversion of the rules back to before that infamous Twitter post.
People who will agree to a fair compromise.
vs
People who will agree to a fair compromise.
Mods who will agree to a fair compromise
People who want to extend the rules.
Mods who want to extend the rules.

And then off to the side you have the people on 4chan and Twitter that want the whole site to burn and shouldn’t be included for anyone.

Note that i didn’t include any mods on the first side, and that’s because the one thing that’s been demonstrated across all this is that any voice on that side effectively counts as much as a regular users.
If the rules are extended and a fair compromise isnt reached, are those mods going to resign or are they going to enforce it?
We’ve got no indication of anything and we dont even know how individual mods voted or even the exact number of votes, we have no choice but to treat the mods as a monolithic entity.
Again, stop trying to placate and start accommodating and maybe people will actually stop giving the mods flak.

Look at the responses the feedback thread got in it’s first few pages before the bias became apparent.
Mods were given a chance and it was effectively spat on.

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GreyGears

Virtually real pony.

@Background Pony #F4D0
So you will ignore 70% of all users instead.
Seems like a solid plan, definitively not the reason all this drama happened in the first place.

I have this crazy, insane idea. Hear me out :
How about … we pick the choice that the most people want ?
I know, I know : preposterous. Ridiculous even !
But I heard there are some countries in the world that tried it, and weirdly enough they are doing better than the one who didn’t. Probably a coincidence, but since the current staff’s plan is going nowhere it might be worth a try, isn’t it ?

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Background Pony #F4D0

@Background Pony #9AC6
I feel like most of users didn’t really read a current rule proposal and didn’t tried to understand it. And as well didn’t tried to compare old and new version. Read my last post again carefully please. @GreyGears , you too.

We’ve got no indication of anything and we dont even know how individual mods voted or even the exact number of votes.

Will the answer “interested mods voted on the poll” satisfy you?

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Background Pony #9AC6

@Background Pony #F4D0
If you mean the previous post that includes

I’m proposing changes which focus on explaining and not just “prohibit everything”.

then that’s good.
Except for the fact that ‘explaining’ isn’t the problem that the majority have, it’s the consistency and obvious bias.
An image saying “All –– are bastards, pigs, and should be murdered” was deemed more acceptable under rule 0 than “Fuck me so we can breed a master race.” at a rate of 50% to 63% of mod-votes.

Will the answer “interested mods voted on the poll” satisfy you?

Not really, actual numbers for / against / abstain would be better.
It’s hyperbole but a 50% vote can be reached by two people disagreeing on it and everyone else abstaining.

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Background Pony #F4D0

@Background Pony #9AC6
With better wording we probably could avoid this problem completely, but it doesn’t matter now. At least it will help even for us to understand, how we should act.

I guarantee you, that the great majority of active mods (not all even “available” mods active rn) voted in poll (we’re interested in receiving poll results as well). Ofc it’s impossible to give individual mod votes: you can’t ask for specific mod to moderate you; it will lead to targeting specific mods with a different opinion _{well, this already takes a place, but just don’t make things even worse}.

We can’t control how everyone is voting, and we don’t need to. Opinions are different after all. Remember that these polls results are not a complete guideline. If you’re wondering, I voted for both pics as violating #0.

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Background Pony #819B

@GreyGears
70% of all users?

Prove it.

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GreyGears

Virtually real pony.

@Background Pony #819B
Other guy claimed at least 30% of people wanting to censor anything, so 100% - 30% = 70%.
Primary-School-Math is Magic.

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Background Pony #9AC6

@Background Pony #F4D0
If you think the problem i outlined is solved with ‘better wording’ then i’m not entirely sure you know what the actual problem is.
You’re not consistent and You’re biased.
Every application of ‘Better wording’ is further proving such.

I wasnt asking for names and who specifically voted on what, i was asking for the number of votes.
Sure you might be able to tally up how many anti-censorship / anti-nazi / neutral mods exist by comparing all the numbers, but you wouldn’t be able to identify them directly so i felt it was something simple to ask for.
^{Then again, i thought ACAB was going to be a clear cut issue when i first brought it up and look where we are.}

You’re right, opinions are different and the polls are just guidelines.
But when the ‘guidelines’ as so drastically skewed that an intended square has become triangle then there’s a big fucking problem.

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Lisboeta

What’s especially funny (especially sad) is that people on “anti-censorship” side keep giving the best data they can, and “anti-nazi” and mods keep saying it’s not reliable enough data. But Mods can gather more reliable data, they simply prefer to ignore this option and to care not about what community may like or think but what they like or think that community likes.

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Background Pony #9533

@Princess Celestia
I thought the 4channer paranoid died with TSP, but clearly it didn’t.
No, Raptorshy was the only was I feel she tried to listen to the community instead of weak polls trying to defend a ridiculous censorship in a moderated way. And you treated her like shit for doing the right thing.
I think the staff still don’t get the point about why peopleis unhappy with all of this.

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Background Pony #F4D0

@Background Pony #9AC6
Okay, let’s look at what we have from the other side. Let’s think, that we want to preserve as much art, as possible _{(while not every mods think this way, majority still)}. And we have two opposites: strict our rules and their application a little bit which results in at maximum ~100 images being removed by adjusted policy, or do nothing and have multiple thousands of images being removed via DNP because “we allow nazism”. As much as cynical it may sound, if we have an opportunity to keep more, we will try to go on it. And also right now we have ponybooru which chose second way, and already started to receive dozens of DNP requests, so if we chose second way as well, there will be no booru for content from these artists. It doesn’t make situation and choice less bullshit of course. I know, that mistakes were made, you don’t need to remind about them one more time.

I guess, while you could already just go for bruteforcing possible numbers and get an answer by yourself, okay — 16. I personally think, that the lack of “gray-area zone” somewhere around 40-60% in poll results is a very misleading: in reality, as long as votes are mostly equal, image stays in “undefined” state until some consensus happen.

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Northern

I refuse to bend

@Background Pony #F4D0
If artists are for censorship, I would argue they’re making their bed by self-censorship at that point. If an artist doesn’t want their artwork posted here, they should not be posted here, but it’s important to remember: That’s their choice, not the modstaff or admins choice. Their stance should be with doing the right thing, regardless of what other people say. “When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, it’s your duty to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and say ‘No, you move.’ “

The moderation and admin staff are not and will not be responsible for the DNPs of people who pull out because other people’s artwork is hosted. They will be responsible for any DNPs that occur due to their active actions, I.e. creating censorship. This is the difference between making a step directly to change things and therefore the results of those actions being your responsibility and making no action, allowing things to shake out as they will and therefore having no responsibility for the actions of others around you. The admin staff are not and should not be obligated to cater to the whims of those demanding censorship because censorship, as a concept, serves to bias the archive that this site is. The admin staff, meanwhile are in a way obligated to listen to the general demands of their common userbase due to the obvious nature of trying to run a community. These demands have been loud and clear and it’s not going to help anyone to actively spit in the face of the community by breaking what little faith they have left.

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #F4D0
By enforcing the anti-“nazism” rule the site is guaranteed to lose about 17000 (seventeen thousand) images - the amount of art those on anti-censorship DNP list have, and have promised to issue takedowns if censorship continues; on top of whatever is deleted to the rules (e.g. ~3.6k of “nazi”) because grandfather clause has been thrown out.

or do nothing and have multiple thousands of images being removed via DNP because “we allow nazism”

The problem with that kind of thinking is that it’s naive option.

People who have (already, because being reactionary and immediately going DELET THIS paints you in much better light than simple DNP /s) removed art because “nazism” are much less likely to come back even if “nazism” is banned; I daresay the chance of most of them coming back is the same regardless of which way the staff choose because they don’t really care and are bandwagoning, or, as Meow said but in less hostile manner, because Derpi’s exposure capability is much more attractive than homeopathic concentration of “nazis” on site is repulsive.
And the minority explicitly won’t come back because it’s not about nazism for them, it’s about bullying staff into submission, and by going “okay we banned nazism, please come back” staff would prove that holding art hostage WORKS and these kind of people would - and, in fact, do - just demand more and more. Dilarus, for example, has tweeted that (paraphrasing) “good on you for banning nazis, still won’t be going back because foalcon”.

so if we chose second way as well, there will be no booru for content from these artists

Rainbooru doesn’t care about DNPs. The Pony Archive also doesn’t care about DNPs. Any “pure archival” booru is going to ignore them, as well.
And if anyone wants to keep their arts on twitter, they’re more than welcome to - freedom of expression and freedom of choice mean freedom to commit a mistake in picking a site blatantly unsuited for art hosting or advertisement.

@Northern

The moderation and admin staff are not and will not be responsible for the DNPs of people who pull out because other people’s artwork is hosted. They will be responsible for any DNPs that occur due to their active actions, I.e. creating censorship. This is the difference between making a step directly to change things and therefore the results of those actions being your responsibility and making no action, allowing things to shake out as they will and therefore having no responsibility for the actions of others around you. The admin staff are not and should not be obligated to cater to the whims of those demanding censorship because censorship, as a concept, serves to bias the archive that this site is. The admin staff, meanwhile are in a way obligated to listen to the general demands of their common userbase due to the obvious nature of trying to run a community. These demands have been loud and clear and it’s not going to help anyone to actively spit in the face of the community by breaking what little faith they have left.

This, basically. Also obligatory
full

full

P.S. Also, Twitter and DeviantArt have literally orders of magnitude more nazis and nazist art, DA specifically has ~75k images against Derpi’s ~3.6k. “Muh nazism” is physically incapable of being a valid excuse - and real reason for the takedowns therefore is not nazism.
P.P.S. Also, anyone who campaigns against “foalcon” or says “lolicon is pedophilia” on Twitter could stand to remember that Twitter has real pedophiles, sharing real CP openly, and Twitter is taking its sweet time in banning them.

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