Pro-free speech on the site but IRL against nazis

Background Pony #D2C4

No judgement of any of you. But honestly, I hope that at least someone still keep an opinion against that weak ideology outside of here while also being part of the “pro-free speech” side on derpibooru.
If you are one of them, please let your voice be heard on this thread.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Filiecs

Deletion reason: Rule #0

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

It doesn’t actually conflict. I am against things nazis do, not the symbols they take up.

Suppression of free speech and dissent, and antagonizing/labelling certain groups of people is what the actual nazis did.
It was acceptable to hate jews (and communists, but that’s less noted) in 1932 Germany, and Hitler-NSDAP didn’t start with Final Solution (as the name indicates), they started with “making jews feel unwelcome”: harassing them on the streets, denying them work, branding them and their supporters; and it escalated from there to exile, then to murder, then to genocide.
Overfocusing on the symbols, like the swastika, results in missing the actual substance of nazism happening; and, given both the activity and related historical precedent of many staunch anti-LGBT activists getting outed as gay, can in fact be an attempt to misdirect and distract people from the “denouncing” person or group sharing that behavior.

^{That is, if your speech or picture can have “nazis” and swastikas replaced with “jews” and Star of David and ‘become’ hateful and nazist, then the original is also hateful and you should reconsider your stance, because it is expressing exact same sentiment as actual NSDAP, just with a different “acceptably hated” group.}

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #A96B

@Background Pony #D2C4
Outside of shitposting, I think you’ll find very few who IRL agree with Nazis. I very much support free speech and I don’t think art featuring Nazi stuff should be banned. Just because someone chooses to depict something doesn’t necessarily mean that they are in support of it either. There’s plenty of images on the site that use it for comedic purposes for example. Censorship puts limits on artists creative freedom.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Archonix

Retired Ass

It shouldn’t need to be said that IRL racists, bigots, and “race realists” can get stuffed, though I’d prefer to try and help the understand the error of their ideology and bring them around to a more peaceful path.

It shouldn’t need to be said, but since upport of greater creative freedom is conflated with “being a fascist” by people who see fascists behind every bush and rock, I suppose it has to be.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

Also, letting actual-nazis-please-show-me-ONE-on-Derpi speak opens them up to challenge, ridicule, and support-for-not-being-a-nazi, and hence, to deconversion. Taking up arms is only necessary when your opponent refuses to speak and argue, and the oft-quoted Paradox of Tolerance is actually very much “suppressing people who are willing to argue is foolish, the “intolerant” are only the ones who go for violence ^{like, for example, trying to take Derpi’s patreon down and slandering the site when that fails} instead of words”.

Ah, fuck it, this garbage fire of a connection doesn’t let me upload the infographic describing it more attractively.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

NamelessNP

Starlight and Sunny Fan

I am 100% against nazi and other bigoted ideologies which I think both sides of this matter should agree on, but also in favor of artistic freedom

It shouldn’t even need to be said though

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #B69E

I’ve been very much on the “let’s ban nazis” side but it is refreshing to hear you say this.

I really mean it. Hearing you clearly, unambiguously, sincerely denounce nazis and racism means a lot.

I… hm.

I have trouble telling when people are joking a lot of the time. So when I go to a comment thread on a picture of a nazi and see people seeming to agree with what’s in the image and call it “based” or whatever, it really sends up red flags for me. I’m kinda bad at picking up on sarcasm, and it doesn’t help that actual far-right extremists like the Daily Stormer specifically advise using “lulz” to give their racism plausible deniability.

I just… I see people post things like that, and - not having any surefire way to know if they don’t really mean it - I get scared. Because it’s hard for me to tell the difference between a “shitpost” and a genuine shitty person. :/

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #B69E
A lot of the anti-censorship side genuinely denounce real nazis. The problem is that the “anti-nazi” side is very actively trying to muddle up what “nazi” means, and keeps calling the anti-censorship side “pro-nazi” to poison the well.

Meanwhile, the anti-censorship side is naturally anti-nazi, because banning “wrong” opinions and smearing their opponents by association with something “acceptably hated”, and assaulting them (see: brownshirts/antifa) is something real nazis have done plenty. We also understand that silencing anyone just makes them a martyr, while letting them say their drivel and only stepping it when it goes beyond talking (say, calls for violence) makes them laughingstock.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #B69E

@Barhandar

I disagree there. I think it’s fine for communities to have rules against certain kinds of content. Not every community is appropriate for giving every ideology a platform, and I guess derpibooru’s been debating over whether it’s that type of community. I do think it is valid if a community wants to just not have to deal with stuff like that, though.

But… And so I don’t drag us too far off topic, it does matter to me to hear people denounce racism. It really does. I’ve been very nervous about what I’ve perceived as a rise in racial tension over the past few years. I feel like open racism has become, if not normalized, at least less taboo to publicly express than it was when I was younger. And that frightens me a lot, because to me that indicates that it’s becoming a more popular or accepted viewpoint.

So I really mean when I say that any open denouncement I see really does legitimately make me feel safer. What some people see as “virtue signaling” comes off to me as actually assuaging my fears and helps me calm down. You speaking out against racism matters.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #D2C4

@Background Pony #B69E

@Barhandar

I disagree there. I think it’s fine for communities to have rules against certain kinds of content. Not every community is appropriate for giving every ideology a platform, and I guess derpibooru’s been debating over whether it’s that type of community. I do think it is valid if a community wants to just not have to deal with stuff like that, though.

But… And so I don’t drag us too far off topic, it does matter to me to hear people denounce racism. It really does. I’ve been very nervous about what I’ve perceived as a rise in racial tension over the past few years. I feel like open racism has become, if not normalized, at least less taboo to publicly express than it was when I was younger. And that frightens me a lot, because to me that indicates that it’s becoming a more popular or accepted viewpoint.

So I really mean when I say that any open denouncement I see really does legitimately make me feel safer. What some people see as “virtue signaling” comes off to me as actually assuaging my fears and helps me calm down. You speaking out against racism matters.

Yeah, the “in-house” rules have ever existed everywhere. Only now are a problem for some reasons. The fact that now many people are so noisy in defending nazi symbology I may understand that smells fishy. But I think that there are many people here who are just genuinely into being free to do their job.
But by being honest, there are some actual nazis here who are defending their ideology. Negating this is pretty naive.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #FEA4

@Background Pony #B69E

And that frightens me a lot, because to me that indicates that it’s becoming a more popular or accepted viewpoint

If it helps, you can cross one person out of that potential list of racists.

I myself judge people only based on their actions, and I like or don’t like them only based on their personality.

I wish racism didn’t exist at all.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

MistyFan2478

Misty is best pony

This thread seems unnecessary, since I’m pretty sure almost no one here on the anti-censorship side actually supports Nazis.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #B69E

@PurpleSmart2

If my opinion counts for anything, it matters to me seeing them clearly denounce racism because i have a really hard time parsing ironic and sincere depictions of it.

I appreciate what they’re doing and don’t want to discourage anyone from chiming in here.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Skoon

Too tired to care

I would not tolerate actual racism. Especially not in real life.

I have a super wonderful ability to separate fiction from reality. A rare talent evidently. I almost lost it, even.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

MistyFan2478

Misty is best pony

@Background Pony #B69E

@PurpleSmart2

If my opinion counts for anything, it matters to me seeing them clearly denounce racism because i have a really hard time parsing ironic and sincere depictions of it.

I appreciate what they’re doing and don’t want to discourage anyone from chiming in here.

Yes, racism is bad, and Nazis are awful. You would think those were obvious statements, but unfortunately there are some anti-Nazi people who really do think that being against wanton censorship means you support Nazis.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #B69E

I think it’s fine for communities to have rules against certain kinds of content.

Generally, it is, but here problems are “definition” and “consequences”.

Definition:
Banning “nazism” alone, even if you ban genuine nazism, does not prevent real nazis from just changing their symbols. See all the neo-nazi parties of 80’s Germany, for example, who were still neo-nazi and just used different, not banned, symbols for all their two decades of existence.

Consequences:
This ban comes after six years of not having nazi problems, with artwork tagged “nazi” being on steady decline and there being extremely few and far between genuine-propaganda images. Those images were also deleted, because such propaganda has been covered by rule 0’s definition for all this time and no rule adjustment was necessary. This means it’s going to (and has) disrupt the community, no ifs or buts.
Additionally, it is being pushed for, in word, by a crowd who have repeatedly proven themselves to not stop at banning just one thing; who are aptly described by “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile”; who have explicitly announced their desire to continue banning things after this. This crowd will see banning “nazism” as a sign of Derpi yielding to their pressure, and will hence move on to targetting something else.
It’s like dealing with bullies: the only way to get rid of them is to make yourself unattractive target (and internet is the only place where ignoring their rage actually works), if you yield to them they’ll keep bullying you. If you give bullies your lunch, they’ll treat you as free lunch from then on, and it will be much harder to get them to stop once you yield even once.

I feel like open racism has become, if not normalized, at least less taboo to publicly express than it was when I was younger.

It has, regrettably. The “racism is power plus prejudice so minorities can’t be racist” activists have contributed a lot to that, on both sides: as it both normalizes genuine racism (considering someone superior or inferior based on race - usually skin color - alone, and ignoring real differences in the process) exhibited by said minorities, and pushes people erroneously deemed “racist” into actual racism.

And yes, I’m against racism, regardless of race involved. Race should be irrelevant, only what you can actually do matters.

P.S. Also, this “banning nazism” thing came immediately after, and from the exact same people, as “banning negative reception of BLM images” in the beginning of June. Regardless of whether you upvoted any, or whether you thought that specific picture was garbage and supported the idea or the movement otherwise, downvoting them could end up with you automatically forcibly filtered from the tags “blm” and “acab”.
So naturally people did not like the incredibly one-sided enforcement, and the consequent “nazi” ban which was pushed for by like three people against actual state of the community and opinion of everyone else, using a vague definition that SHOULD have affected certain other ideologies, but was explicitly stated not to by the staff.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #B69E

@PurpleSmart2

That’s… not why it’s not obvious to me. It’s not the “anti-nazi” side accusing the “anti-censorship” side that made me feel worried.

It’s been the rise of the alt-right and the fact that openly arguing for racism has become more common in the past few years. Maybe that hasn’t been your experience, and I acknowledge that everyone’s different and gets exposed to different things. But I personally have encountered this and I promise you that in my case it has nothing to do with any derpi drama or anyone from the anti-nazi pledge. My concerns well predate that.

That said, thank you for speaking on this matter.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

MistyFan2478

Misty is best pony

@Background Pony #B69E

I’m pretty sure I have indeed had a different experience than you in that regard. I spent my teens in a place that is practically brimming with racism: 4chan. In fact, the /pol/ board is basically a place where anons can be as racist as they want to be with no repercussions. However, I never let that effect me. I just rolled my eyes at it and moved on, trying to stay away from /pol/ for the most part. Occasionally I got curious and looked in to see what was going on there, but I was always turned off by the over-the-top racism

But racism was never why I frequented 4chan. In fact, I went there because I believed in a place free of censorship. I have been shaped by the idea that freedom of speech is paramount, unless people are directly being harassed, which 4chan has been involved with too, I won’t lie.

Perhaps I’ve been desensitized to “racism”, just as I have been to violence. Still, I believe that a few pictures that can easily be filtered just don’t hurt anyone. It doesn’t provide a “platform for racism to breed” or whatever. They’re just pictures, whether they be over-the-top or not. I am against censorship, no matter what. I just don’t want people to be harassed by actual racists. That’s not okay. But Aryanne pictures? Come on, I just don’t understand what all the fuss is about.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Archonix

Retired Ass

@Background Pony #B69E
IMO it’s become more visible, but compared to what was normal behaviour toward minorities in the 80s and even the early 90s, it’s less accepted than ever.

Still. While I’m not normally a fan of having to say things that I personally consider obvious, I’m glad if I could help you here.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #B69E
That’s the problem, the rise of alt-right is a consequence of “fighting against “nazis””, just like how mafia (in USA)/homebrewing (USSR) was the consequence of Prohibition, and how massive drug problems are a consequence of War on Drugs (among other reasons). Banning something wholesale doesn’t stop people from doing said something, it prevents you from regulating, controlling, and suppressing it properly.
And blaming/assaulting people who were not doing the banned thing, claiming they are doing it, results in said people being much more likely to get involved with said banned thing. One of the reasons, for example, is “I’m not doing anything racist, but these people are calling me a racist; maybe they’re wrong about other people as well?” and bam, a prime recruitment target for genuine racists is created.

@Archonix
And yeah, this too. The rise of the Internet has resulted in higher exposure for all kinds of bigots, but also higher ability to properly suppress them (both via ridicule and via tracking and busting them). The increased amount of bigots is, however, real too.

@PurpleSmart2
Ironically, 4chan is one of the least racist places on the Internet despite having a lot of racists, because of overwhelming anonymity. One can’t hurl targetted slurs if they have no idea who they’re responding to; anonymity forces people to react to what others are saying, and if someone tries to brandish their “who” (e.g. pull the race card; “I’m black/white/red/yellow/pink polkadotted so you must listen to me and my opinion is somehow of higher worth”) they get justified pushback for thinking said “who” matters there.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Background Pony #FEA4

@PurpleSmart2

But aren’t most people on 4chan just saying mean or disgusting things and curse a lot and pick on each other, because they feel that’s fun to behave that way?

That was always my impression whenever I was accidentally exposed to screenshots or videos with screenshots or a few random links to 4chan.

Majority of content there feels kinda disgusting or boring, so I’m not sure how someone could see it as a fun place to spend their time in.

Well, I kinda can understand kids or teenagers being there though, because they often love to go against the rules of society via internet, so 4chan makes them feel more freedom.

In that case, it could be a phase in their lives, I guess.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Skoon

Too tired to care

@Archonix
Having been a victim of bigotry in the 90’s myself, I can vouch for this.

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

MistyFan2478

Misty is best pony

@Background Pony #FEA4

You do have a point. I was just an edgy teenager who felt 4chan was a cool place to hang out. Now I’m in my late 20s and being edgy just for the sake of it doesn’t appeal to me much anymore. I barely use 4chan these days anymore, unless it’s useful (e.g. for finding other MLP boorus or seeing what’s going on in the fandom).

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

Link Quote Reply

Armagedonus

Don’t get me wrong people, but this entire thread fells like “moral masturbation”.
Like it makes me wonder how many of you really mean it, and not just write this shit down to “own the pro-censorship crowd”.

And to answer the inevitable “what about you?” question:
I hate real nazis for fucking up eastern Europe in the name of “restoring Great Germany”.
I hate neonazis for being literal gangsters who use Nat-Soc Germany’s symbols as an excuse to be fucking evil. I have no illusion that if real nazis never existed, then these shitheads would just another symbol (maybe black metal related?) and continue to behave 100% the same.
I hate “white nationalists” who believe you can combine being pro-white with nazism. Like don’t these people understand that nazis killed white people to replace eastern European natives with Germans? Don’t they understand that people in modern society are trained since birth to associate nazis with evil?
Trying to legitimize pro-white movements with “nazi elements” is like trying to get a job as kindergarden teacher while being convicted pedophile - no matter how good you are with children, you are still a convicted pedo. (and you should die in fire)
The only thing that I hate more than above is censorship, especially “censorship for your own good” done so by “twitter woke culture”. Yuri was fucking right guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q

Posted 3 years ago Report

Link Quote Reply

Interested in advertising on Derpibooru? Click here for information!

Techy Cutie Pony Collection!

Help fund the $15 daily operational cost of Derpibooru - support us financially!