Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread

@Background Pony #F329  
Those same people use Twitter and Facebook and Reddit so I hardly put stock into their opinions.

@Archive_Anon  
I’m pretty sure sex alone isn’t going to indicate something is propaganda or promoting prejudice. Aryanne domming a Zebra or the reverse should both be fine in and of themselves.
 
@TheDrizzle404  
I think the main result of this thread will be some staff’s minds being changed on things. The polls were very deliberately done with minimal discussion, so that everyone could get their view out without huge imbalances from rallying to particular people etc., and now what users have said here will be essentially the primary thing that staff get before the bulk of internal discussion.

@Princess Luna  
Again, this whole exercise is ridiculous. You’re not going to please the mob, you’re not going to please us – the actual users – with a shitty compromise solution. Any solution should revolve around improving the filter system and requiring affirmative consent to see controversial art. Free speech for those with whom you most disagree with deserves a full-throated defense, not lily-livered concession.

@Frosku  
@Background Pony #8AF4  
Those people apparently include the site owner and a couple mods, hence the current situation.
 
@Princess Luna  
I think the main take away from this is that mods dislike futa might need to properly analyse why they voted the way they did, because it really does look like art quality and style preference was a major factor here.

@Frosku
 
Don’t talk for everyone.
 
I’m actually pleased with a compromise.
 
Because fully satisfying either side would lead to ditching the other side completely.
 
And partially satisfying all the sides is the only way to have at least some satisfaction, which is better than NO satisfaction.

@Frosku
 
I think the whole purpose of this exercise has been to avoid resorting to any of the extremes. Some people might prefer one extreme over the other. That is the nature of internet disputes. But the staff has seen the numbers as far as DNPs, and it seems they’ve decided that avoiding extremes is the best path forward.

@Background Pony #25FA  
I’m glad there are other people here who get it: no compromise will lead to one of the two extremes, which will make one side very unhappy while the other side would be really happy.

@Princess Luna  

 
I’m a bit pessimistic at this point, but I don’t believe anyone’s minds were changed. People went in with their ideas and came out with posts that support their ideas which they’ll use to justify their position. I’m reminded of the initial BLM announcement that sparked this whole thing off that said quote “we have received a lot of feedback from our community regarding this stance, and we have heard you loud and clear.” When the results from the community were plain as day and ignored in favor of what admins and a small handful of activists wanted. I suspect this will be no different and nothing that’s happened lately gives me a reason to.
 
But even though I’m pessimistic, I really do want to know what the true goal is. Why bother asking at all if TSP made up his mind? Why bother asking at all if the results will be ignored? Is this a way to make people feel like their vented frustrations are being listened to? A mere pressure release valve?

@TheDrizzle404
 
You clearly weren’t following all the forum threads where everything was explained regarding TSP.
 
Luna’s actions here as an Administrator and Site Seveloper will have a lot more weight in the situation that you might assume. And it was explained why.
 
And it was explained that TSP isn’t gonna prevent this compromise with the revised Rule 0 from happening.
 
Let’s just wait and see. If somehow things will happen differently, then and only THEN can we assume that were were lied to in any way for the past couple of days.
 
I personally want to believe that nothing was lies, and that things will work out in the end with the new compromise.

@Background Pony #5C8B  
@TheDrizzle404  

Lunas could you explain things to TheDrizzle404?
 
Because it seems they are trying to sway people into believing that everything that happened recently is being a ruse.

@TheDrizzle404  
I would like to note that internally, we don’t yet have a thread for figuring out what to do, and that’s very deliberate so that we actually get the feedback from here. And please try to stay more on-topic.

@Princess Luna  
I’m not sure if I was replied to accidentally or my point misread entirely.
 
To clarify the two images I referenced specifically are >>1062553 (deleted) and >>818105
 
Both received a 78% vote to ban. I disagree with both personally. However I understand why a majority may see the first image as something that may fall in to this rule. It’s aryanne literally masturbating to the screams of dying ponies.
 
The second image is beyond me however. It’s got nazi imagery but it’s certainly not in the same league as the first image. The Reichsadler is actually quite nice looking. It’s got genuine artistic value.
 
Somehow these images both received 78% votes in favor of banning though. They are in entirely different leagues of offensiveness.
 
That is why I cannot understand the results. They seem bizarrely inconsistent at best.

@Background Pony #25FA  
If one person wants shit and the other wants ice cream, mixing shit with ice cream isn’t a “compromise”, it’s a concession.

@Princess Luna  

 
What do you think of the idea of the staff describing what they think Derpibooru is? Perhaps a better way to figure out what needs to be done is to figure out what each person sees as their final result. What would you call Derpibooru and what does that mean to you?

@Archive_Anon
 
The second image is bascially simply an art of Nazi symbolics, and that tiny pony there looks clearly out of placee.
 
In other words, that pony was added there for one simple reason: to justify having that Nazy propaganda art on a pony related site.
 
Can’t you see it?
 
I can.

@Archive_Anon  
It looks like I meant to reply to Freckles’ post.
 
@TheDrizzle404  
That sounds incredibly vague and likely unhelpful as a result.

Commentary on the poll results:  
Poll 0:  
Not any more of hate speech than Patrisse Cullors’s “zionism = anti-blackness”, still closest it gets to rule 0.  
Slur usage not directed at real people is not hate speech, racist characters are not racist people  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
Ditto. Also, low artistic merit, it’s a screencap with words put on it.  
The first piece of (mockery of) real propaganda, but in meme format. My opinion on propaganda is still the same: tag and filter.
 
Poll 1:  
Turbo blatantly obvious joke. They’re dabbing, for fuck’s sake.  
grimderp, also “implied snuff”. Don’t see how it’s worse than actual snuff on the site.  
Also a derp, not seeing artistic merit. Only hate speech/propaganda if you consider hating bronies to be such.  
Non-specific and misrepresented execution by gas with ponies. Filters (including downvotes-filter and score-filter) can handle it.  
A joke, not hate speech or propaganda.  
The entire series of these images is dedicated to poor taste jokes. Also, actually kinda funny.  
Another joke.  
Racist characters are not racist people.  
Piper Perri surrounded with Aryanne literally cannot be anything but mockery of Aryanne/nazism. Not rule 0.
 
Poll 2: obligatory joke about “larger swastika = more people vote against”  
Not propaganda. But might be rule-3‘able depending on what else that artist drew.  
Not propaganda. Also literally “Nazi OC, done with as many swastikas and Nazi symbols as possible. “  
Not propaganda.  
Not propaganda.  
Finally, actual propaganda! And also effectively mockery of real Nazi propaganda. Also the pages on the table are funny.  
Another piece of actual propaganda, apparently done for a set of pictures labelled “Storm Ponies” about ponies who are also nazis. Not rule 0, doesn’t actually propagandize nazism to users.  
Edited screencap is not rule 0  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
Aryanne is a mockery of nazism and isn’t doing anything propagandistic, not rule 0.  
Does Donald Duck count as fine art? Either way, a parody of classical-by-now work, not rule 0.  
Aryanne is a mocblahblahblah  
Literally only “nazi” thing in the picture is the swastika in background, and the pic itself would not change from any other symbol. Not rule 0.  
Stylistic suck. Still not rule 0, downvotes and filters can handle it.  
Parody of Hitler’s speech with porn, picture wouldn’t change with a different “fluff” though. Not rule 0.  
Porn. No more R0 than if it was Veronika.  
Ditto.  
Ditto.  
A very well-done animation that has no hate speech or propaganda in it whatsoever.
 
 
Final Opinion: there are exactly 0 (zero) images presented that I would have deleted for rule 0 in the polls. Therefore, I can reasonably assume that nazi images I would delete have been, and therefore in my opinion, rule 0 does not require any adjustment of wording from how it’s been for the last six years.
 
ALSO. The poll is biased by only showing images that have been kept, that is, it is about “how to make rule 0 more enforced”, and I am against that on principle.  
BRING OUT SOME IMAGES TAGGED “NAZI” THAT WERE ACTUALLY DELETED FOR RULE 0 OVER THE YEARS FOR A FAIR ASSESSMENT.

This 3rd poll seems even more inconsistent than the 2nd poll. Images depicting more or less the exact same thing are in both #0 and not#0.
 
It comes off more as “if I can bust a nut to it or laugh at it then it stays”

@Background Pony #F329  
I mean, that’s fine? They’re humans. Allowed to have opinions. Until TSP initiates full iron rule the point of this is to act like there’s democracy and discuss solutions. So let’s do so.

I am curious as to why my picture >>2038904 was even considered for rule 0 deletion and why it got 37%.
 
How many people are voting on this?
 
Are you seriously telling me a picture that includes no call to action, no slurs, no iconography, and is just a spongebob meme relating to the then-contemporary racist twiggly meme and the fact that you can take the z and turn it around to make an n, would have been deleted if 3 more people voted aye?
 
This is arbitrary and ridiculous. I dont go out wanting to offend people and i usually dont make edgy memes, believe it or not, and i took great care in making this picture as tame as i possibly could without sacrificing the actual joke of the picture.
 
I cant help but feel insulted.
 
If that is the bias your mods have, that a picture as tame as mine can be almost deleted, then I have to come to the conclusion that this move is ideologically motivated, and not a sincere attempt to “fix” the rules.
 
 
Will you be putting up the complete jargon scott art tag up for deletion next? Racist twiggly was a fan favorite for a while, yet it can be argued to “clearly target a group of people”.  
Are you also considering ACAB pictures for deletion as well, or are cops not considered a group of “people”?

@Princess Luna  

 
Give it a try. Talking usually helps people organize their thoughts.

@Frosku
 

 
Your analogy is seriously out of place here. It’s simply provocative.
 
The more proper analogy would be this:
 
One group of people demand that ice cream would contain no sugar at all.
 
The other group of people demand that there would be huge excessive amounts of sugar in ice cream.
 
The compromise is to put moderate amounts of sugar into ice cream, which would at least somewhat calm down both sides.
 
Just following the demands from any of the sides would be unfair towards the other side.