The great GamerGate discussion. (Stuff and things)
ArmadilloEater
Administrator
French Taunter
@Cyborg_pony
Sterling is usually pretty good, he’s got some clout and he doesn’t mince words when confronting industry bullshit and game’s media being dumb. He’s out to protect consumer rights, even more zealously than TB, I’ll respect him for that.
When he covers anything close to GG he goes a little bonkers though.
Sterling is usually pretty good, he’s got some clout and he doesn’t mince words when confronting industry bullshit and game’s media being dumb. He’s out to protect consumer rights, even more zealously than TB, I’ll respect him for that.
When he covers anything close to GG he goes a little bonkers though.
Cyborg_pony 
@ArmadilloEater
He usually tows the corporate line like when everyone jumped on the “Quiet is objectified” bandwagon, seems to care little about consumers having to pay premium, threaten small indie dev and cherry pick to try and make gamers worse then they are.
He usually tows the corporate line like when everyone jumped on the “Quiet is objectified” bandwagon, seems to care little about consumers having to pay premium, threaten small indie dev and cherry pick to try and make gamers worse then they are.
ArmadilloEater
Administrator
French Taunter
@Cyborg_pony
The “quiet objectification” is a social issue, as I said he gets weird with those.
Otherwise no, you’re wrong I’m afraid. If you think he doesn’t care bout consumers getting nickle and dimmed over shitty publisher practices, then you haven’t been paying attention to his vids. AT ALL. He’s been the strongest voice against microtransactions and lootboxes from the very start. Dunno how you could get that wrong.
And “threaten small indie devs”? Really? Mate if you want to be blindly against someone, you might as well just go the whole hog and call him a deviant freak or something, least it would be kinda true.
The “quiet objectification” is a social issue, as I said he gets weird with those.
Otherwise no, you’re wrong I’m afraid. If you think he doesn’t care bout consumers getting nickle and dimmed over shitty publisher practices, then you haven’t been paying attention to his vids. AT ALL. He’s been the strongest voice against microtransactions and lootboxes from the very start. Dunno how you could get that wrong.
And “threaten small indie devs”? Really? Mate if you want to be blindly against someone, you might as well just go the whole hog and call him a deviant freak or something, least it would be kinda true.
Cyborg_pony
@ArmadilloEater
How is not liking some for doing shitty thing being “Blindly against” him?
The biggest problem with Jim is his ego, he’s too afraid to go outside the narrative to really stand up to what’s important and that’s the mentality of game journalists being “I’m right.” For fuck’s sake that video was him talking down to consumers laughing at terrible game reviewers.
If he’s not willing to call out shitting journos and in stead defend them, then he’s a god damn coward.
Not only that, but he think pirating games should be legal to “Stick it to the man”
I don’t care what you say, what I’ve seen of him makes him look just as bad as the others we’ve talked about for some reason people are just willing to give him a pass with his bullshit.
How is not liking some for doing shitty thing being “Blindly against” him?
The biggest problem with Jim is his ego, he’s too afraid to go outside the narrative to really stand up to what’s important and that’s the mentality of game journalists being “I’m right.” For fuck’s sake that video was him talking down to consumers laughing at terrible game reviewers.
If he’s not willing to call out shitting journos and in stead defend them, then he’s a god damn coward.
Not only that, but he think pirating games should be legal to “Stick it to the man”
I don’t care what you say, what I’ve seen of him makes him look just as bad as the others we’ve talked about for some reason people are just willing to give him a pass with his bullshit.
ArmadilloEater
Hue. What were you saying about irony again?
Administrator
French Taunter
How is not liking some for doing shitty thing being “Blindly against” him?
I don’t care what you say
Hue. What were you saying about irony again?
Cyborg_pony
@ArmadilloEater
Okay, bad wording.
But still When he sits there in supports of doxxing consumers, advocating theft you have to call into question how he is in favor of them.
You say he advocates for consumers when he applauds doxxing the ones that don’t follow the line. You haven’t told me why I should listen to someone like, because it makes look like a hypocrite.
Okay, bad wording.
But still When he sits there in supports of doxxing consumers, advocating theft you have to call into question how he is in favor of them.
You say he advocates for consumers when he applauds doxxing the ones that don’t follow the line. You haven’t told me why I should listen to someone like, because it makes look like a hypocrite.
ArmadilloEater
Administrator
French Taunter
@Cyborg_pony
You should listen to all sides cause that’s how you have informed opinions, instead of “I hate this person because x”. Not doing so is a big reason why the GG movement went to absolute shit, with the crowds turning on each other and pushing away potential allies by being rabid fanboys or haters. Jim’s got some issues (a lot of em actually, I don’t particularly like him tbh), but he’s got some good points.
Also that will help you not get into situations where you sound like you are talking out of your ass. I mean you in a general sense, not necessarily you personally, just to be clear.
You should listen to all sides cause that’s how you have informed opinions, instead of “I hate this person because x”. Not doing so is a big reason why the GG movement went to absolute shit, with the crowds turning on each other and pushing away potential allies by being rabid fanboys or haters. Jim’s got some issues (a lot of em actually, I don’t particularly like him tbh), but he’s got some good points.
Also that will help you not get into situations where you sound like you are talking out of your ass. I mean you in a general sense, not necessarily you personally, just to be clear.
Cyborg_pony
@ArmadilloEater
It’s just to me when he says he’s a consumer advocate, but then takes cheap shots at them any chance he gets in favor of Journalists, it puts a very bad taste in my mouth and I don’t think I could trust someone like that to be objective about the medium.
Especially after picking the side of people that are anti-consumer. There is a huge contradiction and it should be called out.
It’s just to me when he says he’s a consumer advocate, but then takes cheap shots at them any chance he gets in favor of Journalists, it puts a very bad taste in my mouth and I don’t think I could trust someone like that to be objective about the medium.
Especially after picking the side of people that are anti-consumer. There is a huge contradiction and it should be called out.
Turkeynomster
Jim Sterling isn’t so much pro consumer as he is anti-corporate. There are overlaps between the two, but it better encapsulates where the focus of his critique lies.
Plain Pony 
Not a Plane pony
@Cyborg_pony
My impression of Jim is that he is very much pro consumer and anti business. But his stance on GamerGate overrides that. It’s hardly an uncommon thing for someone to let their personal politics interfere with their beliefs.
My impression of Jim is that he is very much pro consumer and anti business. But his stance on GamerGate overrides that. It’s hardly an uncommon thing for someone to let their personal politics interfere with their beliefs.
Cyborg_pony
Naughty Dog Responds to Former Staff Allegations of Sexual Harassment
My guess if this was a woman saying it, they would have apologized and fire everyone she pointed to, whether there was proof or not.
And we’ve seen with those that signal the virtue, they are usually the ones with skeletons in the closet.
My guess if this was a woman saying it, they would have apologized and fire everyone she pointed to, whether there was proof or not.
And we’ve seen with those that signal the virtue, they are usually the ones with skeletons in the closet.
Cyborg_pony
Anti-Gamergate journalist for Vice and Guardian fire for sexual harassment
Can we say, another one bites the dust?
What’s that make now, 5, 6 male feminists turned out to be what they called Gamergaters? I honestly lost track.
Can we say, another one bites the dust?
What’s that make now, 5, 6 male feminists turned out to be what they called Gamergaters? I honestly lost track.
Turkeynomster
@Cyborg_pony
Think it’s at least in the double digits. Something like 11 to 14 . They’re not important enough to be remembered by name, though.
Think it’s at least in the double digits. Something like 11 to 14 . They’re not important enough to be remembered by name, though.
Commune 
🚙
Lindsay’s video on feminist theory really woke me up to what feminist theory really is about
It isn’t about making people feel bad about the media they consume, but rather a critique of the media itself and the culture which produces it
Which is why the majority of people who critique antia sarkeesian have no idea what they are talking about
Seriously, watch this fucking video to see why Feminist Frequencydid nothing wrong is really about
@Turkeynomster
Jim Sterling is clearly pro-consumer
Mostly
He is very anti-business, shitting on Konami as much as possible
@Plain Pony
How ?
It isn’t about making people feel bad about the media they consume, but rather a critique of the media itself and the culture which produces it
Which is why the majority of people who critique antia sarkeesian have no idea what they are talking about
Seriously, watch this fucking video to see why Feminist Frequency
@Turkeynomster
Jim Sterling is clearly pro-consumer
Mostly
He is very anti-business, shitting on Konami as much as possible
@Plain Pony
How ?
Turkeynomster
@Commune
Nothing wrong with taking an analytical look on how media disseminates information or noting certain trends within fiction. The issue with feminist critique is that there is no actual standard involved and how its bias easily overwrites any other interpretation possible. There is too much that is based on “bad faith” interpretations and how it demands moral condemnation and change. If feminist critique stayed as one among many interpretations and it didn’t often enough portray its subject matter with such moral hysteria, it wouldn’t be an issue. It doesn’t help that Anita doesn’t differentiate Japanese games from the rest or how the market demands guide the creative process. Anita’s critique too often assumes the outcome she already believes in and tries to fit those biases as some sort of an universal cultural truth, making them just one step lesser from propaganda.
On the topic of Jim, he flip flops on being pro-consumer and pro-creator, most notably when it comes to insulting “gaming culture” and its entitlement. The only thing truly consistent is his anger towards money grubbing practices and big name studios when they are out of touch.
Nothing wrong with taking an analytical look on how media disseminates information or noting certain trends within fiction. The issue with feminist critique is that there is no actual standard involved and how its bias easily overwrites any other interpretation possible. There is too much that is based on “bad faith” interpretations and how it demands moral condemnation and change. If feminist critique stayed as one among many interpretations and it didn’t often enough portray its subject matter with such moral hysteria, it wouldn’t be an issue. It doesn’t help that Anita doesn’t differentiate Japanese games from the rest or how the market demands guide the creative process. Anita’s critique too often assumes the outcome she already believes in and tries to fit those biases as some sort of an universal cultural truth, making them just one step lesser from propaganda.
On the topic of Jim, he flip flops on being pro-consumer and pro-creator, most notably when it comes to insulting “gaming culture” and its entitlement. The only thing truly consistent is his anger towards money grubbing practices and big name studios when they are out of touch.
Commune
🚙
@Turkeynomster
Feminist critique is also about the culture that surrounds the game
Just because “market forces” or culture determine the content somehow, doesn’t justify the content within the actual game
Sexism is still sexism and it reflects back onto the culture which produces it
And I don’t see how Anita does that in her videos
In fact, her videos(though at times poorly researched) are fairly ok in my opinion
They are not great by any means, but she comes to her conclusions through fairly consistent and good logic
And yeah Jim Sterling really is only consistent in anti-business in that he hates money grubbing CEOs, but when you really think about it, he doesn’t really fit within any dichotomy of “pro-business” “pro-consumer”
He tends to be more nuanced
Feminist critique is also about the culture that surrounds the game
Just because “market forces” or culture determine the content somehow, doesn’t justify the content within the actual game
Sexism is still sexism and it reflects back onto the culture which produces it
And I don’t see how Anita does that in her videos
In fact, her videos(though at times poorly researched) are fairly ok in my opinion
They are not great by any means, but she comes to her conclusions through fairly consistent and good logic
And yeah Jim Sterling really is only consistent in anti-business in that he hates money grubbing CEOs, but when you really think about it, he doesn’t really fit within any dichotomy of “pro-business” “pro-consumer”
He tends to be more nuanced
Turkeynomster
Very much so, but the argument for unconscious bias is begging the question and doesn’t take into consideration the context of those depictions from any other place than feminist’s own.
A tenuous hypothesis with an unprovable premise. At best sexism in media reflects the single media piece in question and even then the sexist attitude could only reflect the fictional character or world in question. Not all media has the same influence, no one necessarily watches the same media the same way and no one is molded by them the same, so the argument how “sexist media depictions creates sexism” is a very poor factor to prove anything statistically.
It might be if the standards stayed the same with a random sampling each time it was tested and there was no way to interpret the same scene as sexist from some other point of view. When “conservatively dressed female characters are a sign of the patriarchy” and “sexy fictional female characters are a sign of the patriarchy” can both be valid premises for feminist critique, something has to give. I dislike the Bechdel test for multiple reasons, but at least it has clearly defined measurements to follow.
Which was my point. Single label descriptions should only be tolerated for the sake of brewity and comprehension. The “anti-corporate” label was simply the best choice out of any other single descriptive label, in my opinion.
Feminist critique is also about the culture that surrounds the game
Just because “market forces” or culture determine the content somehow, doesn’t justify the content within the actual game
Very much so, but the argument for unconscious bias is begging the question and doesn’t take into consideration the context of those depictions from any other place than feminist’s own.
Sexism is still sexism and it reflects back onto the culture which produces it
A tenuous hypothesis with an unprovable premise. At best sexism in media reflects the single media piece in question and even then the sexist attitude could only reflect the fictional character or world in question. Not all media has the same influence, no one necessarily watches the same media the same way and no one is molded by them the same, so the argument how “sexist media depictions creates sexism” is a very poor factor to prove anything statistically.
They are not great by any means, but she comes to her conclusions through fairly consistent and good logic
It might be if the standards stayed the same with a random sampling each time it was tested and there was no way to interpret the same scene as sexist from some other point of view. When “conservatively dressed female characters are a sign of the patriarchy” and “sexy fictional female characters are a sign of the patriarchy” can both be valid premises for feminist critique, something has to give. I dislike the Bechdel test for multiple reasons, but at least it has clearly defined measurements to follow.
And yeah Jim Sterling really is only consistent in anti-business in that he hates money grubbing CEOs, but when you really think about it, he doesn’t really fit within any dichotomy of “pro-business” “pro-consumer”.
Which was my point. Single label descriptions should only be tolerated for the sake of brewity and comprehension. The “anti-corporate” label was simply the best choice out of any other single descriptive label, in my opinion.
Plain Pony
Except I disagree with cultural criticism due to how nebulous the concept is and how tenuous any connection to media it has. It seems a lot more like harping on a personal pet peeve than actual criticism. I have no problem with criticising a single work or a series. But the further you try to extrapolate those views, the less and less the criticism is valid.
I see her conclusions as very simplistic; something someone could easily deduce themselves, with a heaping of idealology piled on sometimes.
As said before I find him not to be particularly nuanced. He’s pro consumer and anti business, but he switches sides when his GamerGate bias demands it.
Not a Plane pony
@Turkeynomster
Feminist critique is also about the culture that surrounds the game
Just because “market forces” or culture determine the content somehow, doesn’t justify the content within the actual game
Sexism is still sexism and it reflects back onto the culture which produces it
Except I disagree with cultural criticism due to how nebulous the concept is and how tenuous any connection to media it has. It seems a lot more like harping on a personal pet peeve than actual criticism. I have no problem with criticising a single work or a series. But the further you try to extrapolate those views, the less and less the criticism is valid.
And I don’t see how Anita does that in her videos
In fact, her videos(though at times poorly researched) are fairly ok in my opinion
They are not great by any means, but she comes to her conclusions through fairly consistent and good logic
I see her conclusions as very simplistic; something someone could easily deduce themselves, with a heaping of idealology piled on sometimes.
And yeah Jim Sterling really is only consistent in anti-business in that he hates money grubbing CEOs, but when you really think about it, he doesn’t really fit within any dichotomy of “pro-business” “pro-consumer”
He tends to be more nuanced
As said before I find him not to be particularly nuanced. He’s pro consumer and anti business, but he switches sides when his GamerGate bias demands it.
Whatevo
Arch-Rarifag
Neogaf is finished. Owner left over accusations of sexual assault and mods resigned.
I still stand.
I still stand.
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