Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only]

Miss Shy
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You're going to love me.
Were this not the last season, just have Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy Glow be like Team Rocket.

Have them show up and just be a general nuisance before they get defeated yet again.

Starlight can be the Pikachu.
DerpyFast
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@AWGear
I mean, nothing is likely to top "A Canterlot Wedding" and "Twilight's Kingdom" for Chryalis and Tirek respectively. And the writers of "Frenemies" clearly had a lot of fun with them. I honestly don't care if it would "ruin" them; I just want to see more of them without the fate of the world hanging in the balance every time.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@DerpyFast
I just wish that we would get a competent writter who would be able to write them in a way that doesn't "take away" from thier character and still makes it entertaining to see.
DerpyFast
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Understand my reference
@AWGear
If you're talking about them being threatening, the fact that they've been defeated by things like love, rainbows, and friendship has already sort of undermined that. Besides, vulnerability is part of what makes characters interesting.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@DerpyFast
I'm talking more about them staying evil for the whole episode. It's good to have villians show vulnerability.
What I have problems with, is the ammout of comedy that this last episode introduced. It made them look more like comic relief much more than thier (in previous appearance) serious versions.
Magma_ERuptiOn
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I read this shit?
Yeah I'm gonna stick to DF releases at this point, I'd already mentally prepared myself not to watch the early releases because I thouhgt they were only in Italian. If I 'd have known sooner I probably would have watched them but I may as well just stick with my original plan now.
Myoozik
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Great job morons, you almost caused the extinction of your species just cause you wanted to surf and relax.

Episode was good, not great, but I liked it.
Final Ranking: B+
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
Welp, it's time for an Episode review I suppose.
To be brutally honest, It was a decent episode to watch. It got really cringy by the end (Gar Gar's singing is attrocious) but for the most part it was pretty stellar. That said, I woulnd't be me if I didn't have few issues with the episode. So let's go over them.

1) This episode proves that people working on current MLP haven't rewatched previous seasons before writting this one. Fluttershy is as inconsistent as she ever was with her "fear of dragons", which leads me to belive that they retconed it completly. She:
- had no problems with spike in "Friendship is Magic",
- was a bitch to a giant one in "Dragonshy",
- was terryfied of them in "Dragon Quest" (even smaller ones),
- was absent in "Gauntlet of Fire" and "Tripple Threat",
Adding to this that in "Sweet and Smoky" she has no troubles with going to the land of dragons, which makes no sense in the long run. Last time she ever interacted with dragons, she was terrfied of them. There was no time for her to "face her fears", which leads me to belive that DHX lacks any "quality control" in the studio. A simple line "I was afraid of them, but with Smolder and Ember I found that they are not that bad" would be enough to solve this continuity Error.

2) Retconing and miss-characterization of Garble. We have had Garble appear twice before on the show. In no previous appearance it was even mentoined that he was nothing more than a bully. There were no hints onto any "diffrent side" of him. This, again, proves that this epiosde was written by someone who has no grasp on the character in question. It's actually the second time we have a "bad retcon" inserted into the show. We had exactly the same thing happen to Diamond Tiara in "Crusaders of the Lost Mark". Putting aside the quality of that episode, it too had a complete re-work of Diamond's character. She went from being a sociopathic bully to a "misunderstood" character with problems in the family. This change not only complicated her character, but also had her motive behind the shown behviour make you question some of her actions. Garble gets the same treatment in this episode. Even tough the synopsis calls him "sensitive", none of his previous appearances are proving it. This episode makes him also into an artist, which wouldn't be bad, if it wouldn't be a bit contradictory to what have we been shown before. Making up the lyrics on the go takes alot of skill and inteligence, and Grable was never characterized as someone with big language skills, nor inteligence. It would be better if they would actually take a dragon from his pack of friends, and made them into Smolder's brother, as it's generally more common that someone sensitive and shy would join a bully in attacking someone, instead of being the "main bully" himself.

3) Creators can't still write assertive Fluttershy correctly. It's something I noticed ever since the first episode with Iron Will. It seems like since then, we ethier get a FlutterDoormat or FlutterBitch. On a rare ocasions, we can see a "trurly assertive" fluttershy for a second, before we are getting back to ethier option. Writters seem to still be oblivious to the fact that "Assertive =/= yelling asshole" which is the main way they tend to present Fluttershy. Assertive person is someone who knows when to say no and can stand thier ground. Assertive person is NOT an asshole who'd get right up in your face (getting phisical in the process) just to prove thier point. It really pains me to see how badly do the writters make Fluttershy look because of that, especially since when she is "actually assertive" she is much more of a great character. I was really hopeing that they'd fix her up for this episode, but they still seem to not be able to do her justice.

4) Continuity Errors and Retcons There are few more, non-personality related issues in this episode tough, and that's what kills it for me. First of all, We have never seen Dragons being able to change the color of thier flame. Especially since we have seen multiple dragons in the show already, and it was never stated that they can change the temperature of thier flame by changing it's color.
Second of all, we have seen Smolder, Spike and Ember laugh on multiple occasions, and it didn't resulted in a "random fire breath". It seems like every dragon except of them has that ability, but why?
Third of all, since Smolder is Garble's sister, why wasn't she with him during the "Gauntlet of Fire"? She surely would like to see her brother compeete, so why she wasn't present anywhere in that episode. Why wasn't she in "Dragon Quest" even tough she seems to like hanging out with him? This "creative decision" gave us more questions about the logical aspect of previous episodes.

In the end, I'm giving this episode 6/10. It was a decent episode, fully worthy of 7 or 8, if not for the cringeworthy singing.

Now, I can't wait till the next week's episode. I got spoiled slightly about it already, and that makes me hyped as hell to see it.
Myoozik
StarTrix Forever! - Derpi Supporter
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@AWGear
Something tells me that you're not a fan of character development in general. Also, i don't think "glaring oversights" is the same thing as "retcons"

Oh and that wasn't singing that Garble was doing, just regular speech.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@ILoveMyoozik
"Singing is the act of producing musical sounds with the voice and augments regular speech by the use of sustained tonality, rhythm, and a variety of vocal techniques."


Also, I love character development. But the character development is only good when it's explained and done correctly. Turning an unredeemable bully in one episode into a good guy isn't a good way of doing so. If we had both Garble's and Tiara's motives shine through the gaps in thier previous appearances, I'd call it a good character development. As of now, it feels forced.
Myoozik
StarTrix Forever! - Derpi Supporter
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Artist -
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@AWGear
Dude, I'm a music enthusiast, I know what singing sounds like, he was just speaking in rhyme, it's what they do in poetry readings. You can say that the poetry and delivery was cringeworthy, but that wasn't singing.

Character development done correctly I get, but it doesn't always have to be explained. If it is, then it ruins any sort of value and worth to it instead of letting it shine through.

Also, I know I said that I won't be questioning your posts, but you really have to work on not bringing up the writers and the studio and talking them down every time.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@ILoveMyoozik
Im a singing enthusiast, and still I went by the definition. There alot of songs wirtten in a way, that they sound more like poetry. Untimately, talking about is pointless, since it wasn't even one of my main points. The fact if he was singing or not changes nothing in the episode.

Imagine if they came out and say randomly that Applejack doesn't like apples anymore. You'd like to know why she stopped likeing them, would you? A little explanation can never hurt a stort (unless it's overexplaining) but too little of explanation can create plot holes.

Then who is to blame for continuity errors? Characters themselfes? There is a diffrence between blameing writters for what's clearly not thier fault (bad advertisement, 20 minutes per episode limit or "merchandise pushing" related decisions), but writting episodes and the characters is only up to them. If they make contradicitions to previous material, who would be there to blame in your opinion?

Also, I can't get enough of that Smolder picture :p
Myoozik
StarTrix Forever! - Derpi Supporter
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Artist -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
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Music Connoisseur
@AWGear
Well if you think about it, music is by definition poetry since it follows a rhyme scheme and a meter with syllables and intonation, except with it being set to music with instruments and everything. I get that speech singing is a thing (it was back in the 50's), but I'd be hard pressed to call it singing. Yeah, I know that it's got nothing to do with the episode nor changes anything, I just love talking about music since it's my passion.

Nah, they won't do something like that, they know better than that, but to answer your question, I would like to know. I agree that there has to be some sort of balance, but these things are inevitable. You can either go "show, don't tell" by explaining too much, or create plot holes if you explain a little. But to go with what you're criticizing, demanding explanations for stuff like why the dragons fires change colors and the three main dragons not having just seem silly and nitpicky. If you think about it, it's not really criticisms worth bringing up because they don't affect the plot in any way, shape or form. It's just nitpicking and pointing out the little problems that don't matter. Everything else though like the plot and characterization do.

I mean, why blame them at all? These are just people doing their jobs and pointing out their mistakes really isn't going to make it better or help them improve. Like I keep saying, mistakes happen and they're just human. Yes, sometimes they make big mistakes, but constantly pointing it out just seems whiny and entitled. Some helpful advice: Criticize the episode for what it is and not from who made it, cause it comes off as entitlement and complaining too much.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@ILoveMyoozik
It does affect the plot. We see spike useing his fire to many multiple things during the whole series (sending letters, cooking food, setting stuff on fire), yet he uses only "one" kind of his fire. What's the point of having multiple "settings" to your fire breath if you never use them? It wouldn't make sense for this to be in the episode in the first place. It just gave me a reason to nitpick.

I am criticizeing episode for what it is tough. But the episode isn't just "spawned from the 6th dimmension", someone has to write it. If you point out continutiy errors, writters may be more carefull next time while writting. If you point out the fact that the episode contradicts something that has been stated before, the writter writting next episode may do more reaserch to avoid that. Were there any major animation errors in past season or 2? I haven't noticed that. That's because fandom complained that the ammout of cyclop ponies and random alicorns in the background. Animators gathered thier shit together, and stopped making those since. I understand that they are doing thier job, but there is no excuse of doing your job poorly. You must remember. Its a team of writters every time. Multiple people working on an episode. One person can make an oversight, but if it's done by a whole team, it's much harder to excuse. Especially with major errors.

Also, it's kinda funny how Spike knows more than Ember about dragons hatching, even tough he was shown to know barely anything about it, so his only knowlege must come from Twilight's books. Still, a bit of a continuity error
Myoozik
StarTrix Forever! - Derpi Supporter
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Artist -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
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@AWGear
No it doesn't, it affects things in it, but not the overall story. It's a minor thing to be complaining about. Also, if I were you, I'd stop nitpicking cause it gives off the vibe that you complain just to complain and you're unsatisfied with everything. I know that you're not like that and I believe you, but it won't stop others from thinking that way and take you less seriously. You keep saying that you love having discussions about episodes, and that's fine, but I think people will discuss episodes with you more if you bring up the stuff that really matters, not these minor things that have anything to do with anything. Just please listen to me, I'm helping you and being nice as much as possible.

And do you think that the writing is getting better and better with you complaining about them? No, it isn't. If you try saying all that in front of their faces, they'll just think you're crazy or some entitled fan and probably block you. Also, a fandom complaining all at once isn't always a good thing. Yes it helps with those examples you listed, but it won't help their reputation among others not only outside of it, but IN the fandom itself. Do you know why the brony fandom gets flak for being a whiny fandom that complains when things don't get what they want, that's why. It's all entitlement, and entitlement isn't a good thing, it's not how you go through in life. Sorry for saying this but that's how reality is. And let's face it, the series is almost over so complaining about the writing to "improve" them really isn't going to do much and is a lost cause anyway.

Just, open up your ears and be open minded for a second. The reason why I'm saying all this is because I want you to improve and actually be a respected user. Like we wrote on our PM, I want to give you a second chance and actually be a good guy so it wouldn't hurt to listen and take what I'm saying into account. You thought the episode was decent and that's great, I liked it myself. You're entitled to your opinion, but there are better ways of expressing them.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@ILoveMyoozik
It's a diffrent matter now, since the plot on the episode was relaying on this ability. If not for the fact that they had ability to make thier fire much warmer, the eggs wouldn't have hatched. It's a wierd thing, especially since we have never seen that happen before. It's the same thing as with M6 useing the elements of harmony, even when the tree was destroyed in the premiere. It gives us more questions to ask, like "Why haven't they used that before?". The simplest explanation would be "they didn't knew it was possible" and it's fully acceptable. But this episode introduced the "select fire" option without much comment on it. Something as simple as having spike comment on it the first time he saw that would be enough to make it "normal". Then I wouldn't be talking about it, since it would be nitpicking at this point. As it is, with the fact that it's threated as a normal thing, when we haven't seen it done before (even tough it's 9th season), it can be concidred a continuity error.

That's kinda thier problem to be honest. If they cannot take criticizm, it's not the issue with me, but with them. If someone comes to my art and says something that he thinks I did wrong and provides explanation ("slightly gore" example: Exit gunshot wounds are generally much larger than the entry wounds, therefore you made an oversight. ) I would ethier:
1. Give my explanation or my side of the story (program limitations for example)
or:
2. Admit that I made a mistake and keep it in mind for the future.
That's what an "open mided" content creator would do. I accept I make mistakes and if someone points them out with an explanation behind thier reasoning, I can ethier debate them, or admit to my mistake. If the matter is less "factual" but a character development related, you can still debate about that. If it comes down to "Well, in my headcannon they would…" then the creator knows that it's someone's subjective opinion on something.

Do you know why the brony fandom gets flak for being a whiny fandom that complains when things don’t get what they want, that’s why.


I want to touch up on this. For the record:
I have never heard anyone calling the fandom like this.
Honestly, I have never seen this fandom complain about anything (besides Magical Mystery Cure and Derpygate). Judgeing purely from the spoiler threads, nobody is ever complaining about anything. Everyone says like the episodes are (forgive the joke) "Holly perfection that should never be criticized". It seems like I am the only one to ever give an episode a rateing of bellow 7/10. From all the expirience I had, this fandom is the most welcoming to any sort of content. You can see some (subjective opinion) "poorly" drawn pictures that still get overwhelmingly good reception. I had some hate/troll comments under my art, but they were very rare (and hate is everywhere, so they aren't much of a "fandom specyfic thing"). Everyone has been praising episode 100 even tough it was a mess from the story prespective and it was full of fanservice. I don't see your "entitled fandom" part.

I understand what you are saying and I appriciate the feedback, but I don't agree with your opinion on the matter. I belive that there isn't enough criticizm in this fandom and that it's at times too soft when it should feel more "entitled". Remember the fact that we are the consumers of the show, and we should have some say in what's going on in it. Especially since I am not saying for my "headcannon" to become true. I am giving general writting advices from a perspecitve of someone who was always facinated by storytelling. I am not asking for changes in the story. I am taking the already existing story and trying to give advices that would improve it's overall concept. Artists are free to listen to my opinion and take it into concideration, just as much as they are free to dissregard it completly. If I ever manage to make someone think twice about some of thier choices in storytelling, I will be really happy. And if I won't change anyone's mind, I don't mind it.
I am just as free to criticize the writters as much as praising them. My actions aren't ment to "discourage" them from writting, but to incourage them to think about what they are doing.

TL:DR

I dont want anyone to take my words as gospel. My only motivation is to get others to think for a second. Since then, there is a chance that they see some flaw in what they are doing, and change it into what they think it's best.
Myoozik
StarTrix Forever! - Derpi Supporter
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Artist -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
Friendship, Art, and Magic (7 Years) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Happy Derpy! - For Patreon supporters
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
Emerald -

Music Connoisseur
@AWGear
I understand, I only wanted to help…

I'm not saying that they don't take criticism at all, it's that they would take the criticism if people can better explain it instead of being whiny and using slurs or insults or insulting them. Keep in mind that I'm not in any way talking about you, and I'm also not saying that every criticism against the episodes are whiny or like that, I'm just addressing the more vocal parts of that side who are the ones who get noticed more. With the example you listed, they were being constructive and polite about it, but if someone came to your art and said: "You keep making the same gore art over and over and it all sucks! Oh, NOW you're transitioning to hand drawn drawings of MLP mothers? You're being inconsistent now!", I think you'd be upset too. There's also the case of people handling criticism differently, but that's a different subject in itself.

I'll admit I was generalizing with the whiny fandom bit, but that doesn't mean that isn't true. I'm not against complaining about stuff, cause I'll be a hypocrite since I complain about stuff as well, but sometimes I feel like people complain about stuff that isn't there. You probably might not see it, but there are people who complain about everything and just act unhappy for whatever reason.

You know what, I'll just cave in and say it: I don't like entitlement, like at all. It's one of those concepts that's always pissed me off and I wish would die. This whole "Give me what I want, cause I'm entitled to it! GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!" thing really drives me up the wall and annoys me. You'll disagree with me, and that's fine, but I hate entitlement and self-centeredness with every fiber of my being. I'm also not a fan of the writers getting flack for literally everything, I just find that behavior to be dickish and douchey.
And I get that we're the consumers and that they should listen to our feedback, and I'm all up for that, but you got to keep in mind that the show still isn't made for us, it's still made for the purpose of entertaining their target demographic of little girls. Now am I saying that they should write solely for them and forget all the hard work they've done? No, of course not.

TL;DR

I still disagree with the whole entitlement/calling out the writers/nitpicking thing, and you know what, that's okay, I just thought you would see where I was coming from. We're way too offtopic so I'll just end this now. I'm sorry I dragged this for too long.
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