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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3778

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3777

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3776

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3774

AC97's avatar
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AC97
@gingerninja666

I give Discord more slack because his motives really do seem genuine to me. In other episodes where he’s gone into dickish troll mentor mode, he’s clearly had some kind of ulterior motive (wanting to ruin Twi’s time with Cadance, wanting to see Twi squirm and freak out, bitterness over not being given a position at the school). Here though, he doesn’t personally gain anything by doing this. Which leads me to believe his motives HAVE to be primarily altruistic. Which is new for him.


Discord was doing the things he did because he believes in Twilight, and wants her to be as strong as possible. Putting her through adversity was meant to do that… and it arguably worked actually.

Nothing about the idea of "Discord wanted her gone" adds up (I think I’ve seen that once or twice), because of that speech he gave them in the premiere being quite genuine, coupled with the fact that that moment would’ve been a shining opportunity to get rid of them if that was ever what he wanted.

Listen to me. You don’t need me. You don’t need the princesses, and you certainly don’t need the Elements.
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3773

gingerninja666's avatar
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gingerninja666
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

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@Tirimsil

I didn’t say they were amazing. I wasn’t even saying that a version of the finale with Grogar as the main villain wouldn’t have worked. I’m just saying that I liked what they chose to do in it’s own way.

I said "The core problem wasn’t solely "Bad man wants to destroy/conquer the world"" because it’s not. The villain trio were an effect, caused by Discord doing what he’s been doing the entire season. I don’t think the finale’s perfect, in fact I wish this aspect would’ve gotten more screentime. I give Discord more slack because his motives really do seem genuine to me. In other episodes where he’s gone into dickish troll mentor mode, he’s clearly had some kind of ulterior motive (wanting to ruin Twi’s time with Cadance, wanting to see Twi squirm and freak out, bitterness over not being given a position at the school). Here though, he doesn’t personally gain anything by doing this. Which leads me to believe his motives HAVE to be primarily altruistic. Which is new for him.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3772

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3771

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3770

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3769

Tirimsil's avatar
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Tirimsil
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@gingerninja666

… but that is precisely what it was; it was just three antagonists destroying the world instead of one. Are the Dazzlings an amazing twist on a villain just because there are three of them?

Such superficial conceits like "they were DARK friends!!!" shows a gross misunderstanding of anything that actually happened between the three of them, and sweetening Discord’s utter idiocy with "a friend made a bad decision < : )" is apologism. Discord is a big baby who never asks anybody before he just comes in and fucks everything up. He is not fundamentally different from his villain self yet is treated as a good guy. It’s OBNOXIOUS and insulting that they founded the series finale on the worst aspect of the worst character.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3768

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@gingerninja666
SOMEONE was getting shafted in that finale. It was either going to be Grogar or the Trio


Which was something I pointed out after the premiere. It was a bad decision including Grogar at all in the series, as there was no point to his involvement. He should have been left for G5.
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3767

AC97's avatar
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AC97
@gingerninja666

Shafting the Trio would’ve just made their entire arc a shaggy dog story to put over how awesome Grogar is.


Part of the point of Frenemies was to show that Chrysalis is still quite competent, almost making it to the end under her own power.

Shafting all of them in favor of some villain that came out of nowhere (him being from G1 doesn’t count for much) wouldn’t have been universally praised for that, and having the real Grogar get shafted due to not being cautious
enough wouldn’t have either. With Discord, this kind of disaster due to his ego that results in him being humbled is more in-character.
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3766

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gingerninja666
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

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@Tirimsil

Well, I thought it added a personal twist to the final conflict. It’s why I liked Shadow Play. The core problem wasn’t solely "Bad man wants to destroy/conquer the world". It had something relating to the show’s themes in it.

Here, it’s a similar thing. It has villains that use a dark form of friendship. A conflict partly caused by a friend making the wrong decision, and calls to task an aspect of Discord’s personality that he’s always had that was never adressed.

And about Twilight, in the latter half of the season they’ve made a big show of how she’s been getting better. She’s been more in control and calm and coming into her own as a leader. So this kind of reveal shatters that by having her believe it’s all a lie. It’s a deconstruction of all those insufferable "trickster mentor" characters you see in every show ever who teach using unorthodox methods. Only in other shows it always works, and the dickish teacher is vindicated.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3765

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@gingerninja666

The reveal "served a purpose" alright – it made the finale into a farce. It once again made an episode’s core problem solely based on Discord being pretentious. It was a stupid cop-out for Grogar and a cheap excuse to shove together pre-existing antagonists rather than have an interesting new one. It’s literally "a wizard did it" except the wizard is the worst character in the show, and it’s the absolute dumbest story they could possibly have went with.

And Twilight’s "shattered spirit" is merely yet another attempt to dismiss the long-standing criticism of how bad the show has gotten by trying to lampshade it non-comically, much like the episode where they publish their Friendship Journal and all the critics are caricatured as whiny and unfair.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3764

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gingerninja666
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

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@AWGear

SOMEONE was getting shafted in that finale. It was either going to be Grogar or the Trio

At least the reveal served a purpose. It shattered Twilight’s spirits and paid off discord’s weird behaviour throughout the season.

Shafting the Trio would’ve just made their entire arc a shaggy dog story to put over how awesome Grogar is.

And if you did neither of those, then you would’ve even more players bloating out the finale.
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3763

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@gingerninja666
Exactly, but there was soo much fuss made about his inclusion. Even the show constantly hinted at his "grand big plan" and continously stated how "powerfull and evil" he was.

Which is the exact reasons why some of us (me) didn’t liked his incusion at all. He was just some rando who came in to be the final antagonist. But as much as I didn’t wanted him to be the final "bad guy" of the show, I didn’t want him to be so lazily written out of the story.
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3762

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@AC97
Face it, as depicted before the twist, it’s questionable why Grogar didn’t just kill Celestia 100 years ago, instead of waiting for them to get to such a strong position before doing anything at all.

Maybe he’d only just returned, freed by Cozy Glow stealing all the magic, perhaps?
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3761

Tirimsil's avatar
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@AC97

Grogar did come out of left field other than a handwave mention in a children’s storybook (which could easily have just also mentioned Tambelon if you so desperately needed it telegraphed.)

The Pony of Shadows came out of left field after a brief mention as a boogeypone.

Chrysalis came out of left field with no prior mention at all.

It’s called a plot twist. That’s how they work.

Using the entire history of the show as the impetus to summon the Ultimate Evil would be the best possible way to end it, but they didn’t do that. They did another typical two-parter where FRIENDSHIP’S POWER IS MAXIMUM-ER, the only difference being that Twilight is becoming the princess.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3760

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3759

AWGear's avatar
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@gingerninja666
The issue that most people see, is that the story they were trying to tell feel more like a last minute change along the lines of "Shit, we forgot about adding Grogar to the finale. Quick! We gotta do something with him!"
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3758

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gingerninja666
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@Tirimsil

THey could have done that. But that wasn’t the story they were trying to tell.

I think this is the big disconnect between parties regarding the finale. Grogar could’ve been written as a big monster, but others liked the story they chose to tell, with the villains we already know getting to be the ultimate threat by finally working together. Having a dark union (a twisted form of friendship) between the villains be the final obstacle to overcome makes a kind of poetic sense.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3757

AC97's avatar
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AC97
@Tirimsil

Again, you’d have to rewrite everything to make it feel natural.

In case you didn’t notice, there was absolutely zero mention of any "Tambelon" throughout the season, and so it would feel like it came out of left field, that sort of idea.

It would also make Frenemies feel like it was for nothing, the fact that their teamwork was making them stronger. They got the villain song, not Grogar, so it was their story. The three of them combined overcoming a stronger opponent is more thematically coherent than "Grogar is strongest there is and effortlessly outdoes everything they do because lol."

Face it, as depicted before the twist, it’s questionable why Grogar didn’t just kill Celestia 100 years ago, instead of waiting for them to get to such a strong position before doing anything at all.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3756

Tirimsil's avatar
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@AC97

They could easily have rewritten the story to make Grogar a proper main antagonist and not a classic Scooby Doo villain.

All they had to do was make it so that the combination of the Windigos’ return + the Three Amigos causing trouble produces a sufficient level of darkness to connect to the Shadow Realm and thus summon Tambelon + Grogar. Tambelon’s very presence threatens to send Equestria into the Shadow Realm because one or the other has to go there.

Bam, instant Big Problem Grogar.

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3755

AC97's avatar
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AC97
@TheRocketMan

How would Grogar automatically be so much more threatening than those three? How were the stakes low with everything, exactly? They were in wonderful positions to murder Twilight and her friends, multiple times.

You’d have to rewrite most of their episodes for it to remotely work that way.

The Summer Sun Setback was building up to those three being the main threats, period. Unless Grogar was gonna go "lol, no, you spreading disharmony was all as I planned, your scheme is my scheme now."
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Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3754

Pony Discussion » Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only] » Post 3753

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