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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2550

Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Seiken

(because apparently thats bad?)

Only if it challenges/offends them. If it challenges/offends anyone else, it’s fine according to these people.

And yes, even the rule 0 refinement is still garbage and i am still calling for it going back to how it was and lets move on from all this nonsense which has dragged on way too long,

The wording refinement doesn’t really matter. The problem is enforcement - that is, the staff. And the staff is still the same.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2549

Seiken

@Background Pony #781F
And thats just it, you just know it wouldn’t be the end, not by a long shot. And frankly it would be easier to create a new page that has all the restrictions in place to never challenge someone emotionally (because apparently thats bad?).

Nah instead we have weeks of discussions about them wanting to change this website that people have grown to love and they are actually surprised that we don’t just roll over and let their slipper slope censorship train roll over this website. Even if this all actually was just about Nazi images… people who love freedom of expression just don’t care, everything is fair game and if i would like to draw my beloved retarded Derp horse in a Nazi Uniform gassing someone then i want to be able to show it here and if you want to say you don’t like that art that’s fine, but keeping me from expressing myself on here is just backwards.

And yes, even the rule 0 refinement is still garbage and i am still calling for it going back to how it was and lets move on from all this nonsense which has dragged on way too long,

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2548

Background Pony #781F

@taaffeite

@doloresbridge
i don’t know what people personally want, i’m not that close to them. i’m “on the other side” simply because i agree that we should push to get nazi stuff off the website. i don’t have any close ties to anyone else involved in this, i don’t really talk to people and i was happy that there were others finally voicing their concerns about Derpibooru loud enough that i heard them and wanted to join in and pitch in my piece.

i do chat with some of the people “on the other side” because we all share a server that’s about this kind of stuff, but that’s literally it. i’m sorry i can’t give you a clean-cut answer.

edit: sorry, just noticed you were asking if i would push to remove the other problematic content in the future; personally? yes, i would. i don’t know if others would join me, tho. but at that point depending on how Derpibooru handles this current situation it may not even matter how i answer right now because i could have found a new permanent home by then.

Banning all heil and gas chamber art is way beyond the pale. You get a taste of censorship and you want more and more and more. And soon you’ll come for the foalcon I drew too, won’t you? I hate this slippery slope and I hate that you endorse it.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2547

Amm

Shoutout to Cammy

The wheel spinning that is trying to strictly write down what is effectively “I don’t like thing” while trying to be or appear to be impartial is pretty funny. At this point you could have just made a couple minor rule changes, held off for a couple months, and then just enforced the existing rules a bit more strictly and had a whole lot less trouble on your hands. As it is now with the polls and strict wording of the rules, you’ve trapped yourself with your own double standards.

An image of a character killing someone symbolically due to a personal characteristic that is explicitly politically charged and intentionally inflammatory? Clearly violating 3 of the 3 bullet points? A-ok.
Sucking dick with a swastika in the background? BANNED

Hilarious

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2546

Background Pony #C2DE

@taaffeite
It is healthy. Hearing other points of view is healthier than trying to force them out so you can pretend they don’t exist. You want a place where you’re safe from hearing things that make you uncomfortable? You have Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Youtube, even this very site with filters applied. So many sites already cater to your group’s many, many sensitivities because they’ve been subjected to pressure like this. And they’re catering to your side by silencing or outright removing ours. You want one safe space, then another, then another, and you’re still unsatisfied as long as there’s anywhere you can go where we exist. Meanwhile, we’re constantly having to migrate to find anywhere that will just let everyone post what they want to regardless of whether some stranger comes in to announce they’re offended.

Considering a lot of the people who’ve been in the community the longest are part of the “undesireable” group you want to eradicate, maybe there’s good reason we don’t feel like giving yet more ground. Your group got rid of Derpy’s name. You got rid of Molestia. Your standards for what’s acceptable grow stricter by the day. And even if you yourself didn’t plan to keep tightening your grip, your group would, it has before, and it will again.

You have your BLM pics, your ACAB pics, your pride pics, all you want hosted here, and the mods are obviously on your side. So is most of the news, for that matter. How much more power do you need before you’re satisfied? We didn’t want this. We didn’t want your pictures removed, we didn’t want any pictures removed, we just wanted one place to go to find any pony image for any purpose. When we say we “just wanted to grill”, what we mean is that we just wanted everyone to be left in peace.

Why can’t you see that?

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2545

Phaoray

@Princess Luna
Might be late to comment on it, but the third part;

Do not discriminate on personal characteristics (e.g. race, sex, or religion) or advocate for doing so (such as using a mouthpiece to say racism is good).

It just brings to mind an old Family Guy skit where Stewie follows a fat guy down the road with a tuba and the guy starts making excuses about why he is fat before falling into a mud puddle.

To me, it is obvious that it means that if you put up art saying we should hurt fat people, it will be removed, and I agree with that. But, would this apply to art that shows physical characteristics in a negative light? And to what extent? Would art that clearly shows being fat is unhealthy, like them being last in a race, be considered discriminating under this rule?

I’ll keep my own opinions out of this since they do not mean much when talking policy.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2544

Background Pony #F1CC

@Flagrus
People like this often try to ban the things they don’t like, even if they have the means of avoiding it completely. They think if it’s something they dislike, that no one should be allowed to enjoy it.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2543

Flagrus

Manet immutabile fatum

@taaffeite

One thing that I genuinely don’t understand, why does the content you deem problematic have to be completely booted off the site? You said yourself that you just don’t watch family guy or south park because you don’t enjoy it, so why can’t you do the same with the things here? You’re given the tools to completely erase such things from your personal feed.
I’m honestly not trying to sound rude and I apologize if it comes across as such, but I really don’t get why the ability to filter it out doesn’t suffice.

Like, I use my filters to remove pretty much all fetish porn from my timeline, because it’s just not my thing. But I would never advocate to completely ban it off the site.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago because: Small addendum

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2542

Northern

I refuse to bend

@taaffeite
It’s controversial because Derpibooru is not for one side of the fandom. Derpibooru was designed to be an archive for all of the art of the fandom, regardless of if it’s the type of art you like or not. I’m sorry you don’t enjoy the humor that others enjoy but using clout to attempt to strong arm yourself into a position of authority over the rules of what was otherwise a neutral archive because you enjoy the formatting and would rather it be what you want for your convenience rather than what its purpose initially served may perhaps indicate that your opinion is motivated by a form of self-interest rather than a genuine attempt at modelling what the community desires. You have plenty of places to go where you can be free of the imagery you request, as you yourself stated it’s almost dead on Twitter. As you yourself know, Philomena is open source, you could make your own version of this booru with your own rules. This archive does not exist for you, yours or even mine. Derpibooru’s mission statement is explicitly to not be about your artwork, my artwork or any faction or side’s artwork more than it is for or about any other. Thus, whatever the rule changes are, if indeed it is deemed that they are necessary at all, which the majority of the userbase (even before bussing from other parts of the fandom, as was proven a while back) agrees they are not: They must be equally applied in all directions. To me, this should be as simple as ‘allow everything that’s not a direct call to violence’.

As always, I am against censorship for the simple fact that the community is about more than one person, or even the majority of people’s tastes. I don’t draw a ton of pony art and I know I’m not the most popular member of this community ever but what little voice I have will always stand for justice and freedom of speech (to include freedom to create and share whatever artwork is not a direct call for action to violence).

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago because: clarity

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2541

aperture_tech

lol

@Princess Luna
The issues is that the issues that led to this rule change are so multifaceted that it creates all different permutations of issues in terms of the rules. I don’t know how this could be announced without branching off into the issues.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2540

Background Pony #85AC

@Princess Luna
I’ll keep it bullet-pointed.

I’m cautiously optimistic, but worried about impartiality as most others here are.
I hope that this will fundamentally continue to allow for Nazis and Aryanne to receive a variety of depictions across the spectrum of possibilities while also continuing in the original spirit of Rule #0’s opposition to legitimately hateful and violent rhetoric. (And that it doesn’t set precedent for other things people make a fuss about instead of filtering to get targeted.)
I hope this will come with additional transparency, which seems to have been addressed throughout the thread and probably will be in the announcement as well.
If the site is allowed to stabilize on a ruleset for once, I’m curious what additional conversations will open up. One of the roots of the debacle is what the point of the downvote actually is, seeing as users suffered various penalties for downvoting. It’s something I don’t feel very confident about anymore due to how this was handled. I also feel like extra tools to filter out things on an individual level (comments, BGP comments, users, avatars, etc.) could be considered in the future.

I think we can improve Derpibooru’s environment without draconian measures, and personally believe that much of what is targeted is not dangerous to the point of warranting a complete ban. Not everyone wants to try to understand that, but it’s what I earnestly believe.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2539

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@Princess Luna
sorry luna!

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2538

Princess Luna

Senior Moderator

Site Developer

Tag Czar

This has become far too detached from talking about the actual rule change.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2536

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@Background Pony #1A75

What about a picture of Aryanne crossed out by a large no-symbol? It’s clearly a picture of Aryanne so by default must be promoting Nazi ideology, right?

you’re crossing her out and saying no to her existence, literally what even is this hypothetical scenario?

How about South Park and Family Guy? They pull crass jokes pertaining to the Nazi ideology on the regular and they’re aired on television internationally. Would you say they promote natsoc?

i have no idea because i don’t watch those shows because i think they’re stupid, so i don’t witness any of the jokes they might make aside from any clips i’ve happened to see over my years of youtube and compilation videos and what not

i know that art/music/movies/written pieces/etc can be complex and uncomfortable and i know that everyone reacts differently to them, but in a community like this where more and more often lately, people are trying to excuse their poor taste in humor (a word i use loosely) as just an innocent joke (despite being anything but, like saying FUCK NIGGERS! or literally drawing Aryanne/mane6/whatever pony gassing other ponies/gryphons and then being like “oh, but it’s just a joke why are you so mad? :)”), that’s not okay. it’s been a problem on this site and in the fandom for ages. all we wanted was at least one place where there’s just a little bit less of that, and yet people have been contesting this for 2+ weeks now. why is it so controversial?

if the site was even just a little bit more cleaned up, i would come back to it happily. i really don’t like twitter’s post formatting and how its random with what images keep transparent backgrounds and what ones don’t, and i don’t like i can only have four pics in a post, and the cropping is stupid, and…

anyway. i miss derpibooru. i just wish it was a little bit of a healthier environment to post in. that’s all i’m fighting for.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2535

Background Pony #1A75

@taaffeite
It makes sense, but the difficulty lies in telling the “art of scenes from fanfics that have abusive/problematic characters or actions” from just “art that have abusive/problematic characters or actions”. Or can I write a fanfic to go along with my artwork to bypass your verdict?

What about a picture of Aryanne crossed out by a large no-symbol? It’s clearly a picture of Aryanne so by default must be promoting Nazi ideology, right?

How about South Park and Family Guy? They pull crass jokes pertaining to the Nazi ideology on the regular and they’re aired on television internationally. Would you say they promote natsoc?

There is so much nuance to depicting something that’s inappropriate or uncomfortable. Freedom of expression exists in order to let art make its viewers uncomfortable; challenge the status quo and make people think about their world view. Just because you don’t like edgy and immature humor doesn’t mean others can’t and will. Furthermore, no one is demanding that everyone must see pictures of Aryanne and like them. You are free to downvote and filter images as you please, but it’s not fair to banish a harmless joke in poor taste entirely because you think it crosses a line.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2534

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@doloresbridge
no problem yo, i’m glad i finally had someone who would listen to what i had to say regarding this whole thing and not insult me for it :P

speaking of insults can i just say i’m highly amused by everyone thinking we’re all strictly from twitter? my account is literally seven years old, i’ve been posting my art here for at least 4-5 of those years. but suuure, we’re all just a buncha twittermites am i right?!?! /s

and i’m glad people came to love Derpy and defend her and stuff but still… she’s not a retard horse :( she’s just a good lil pony doing her best and she’s so cute too

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2533

doloresbridge

Peace to all

@taaffeite
I appreciate the answer. Even if it is “kind of”/“maybe”. It’s something to think about when calling for blanket bans (does this joke go too far? Is there archival merit?) . I just want to know where everyone stands on rule 0 and what it should be due to the wildly varying degrees of what people want and if any reconciliation is possible/what a “better” derpibooru would look like to them/you/us.

it saddens me that derpy’s origin story involved someone calling her “the retard horse”

And many of those people defended her to the death when Derygate came and came to love her. It just was crass and vulgar, not hate.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2532

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@doloresbridge
well i don’t like people who say retard for starters, it’s a slur and it’s one i wish would die out already (i can already hear the anons gearing up to yell at me to stop being such a sensitive ehs-jay-double-you)
it saddens me that derpy’s origin story involved someone calling her “the retard horse”

as for the other ones, i mean… in-universe horse based racism is still racism? it’s not as inherently problematic as like, IRL racism and people drawing art of Applejack suddenly declaring ”I HATE NIGGERS/ZIGGERS” for no apparent reason other than to upset people

now, do i think that people should be allowed to illustrate/commission art of scenes from fanfics that have abusive/problematic characters or actions, and post them here, for example? absolutely! because the behavior is being painted in a negative light and there are consequences for the behavior (usually) and there’s an in-universe reason they’re doing it and so on and so forth. it’s not just some stupid edgy “joke” that people have retold for the 983rd time because they think it’s funny to go out of their way to post it to purposefully hurt people.

does that like… make sense? 😅

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago because: removed one (1) then cuz it made the sentence structured funny

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2531

doloresbridge

Peace to all

@taaffeite

edit: sorry, just noticed you were asking if i would push to remove the other problematic content in the future; personally?

Yeah. I am especially curious of personal perspectives. The anti-Nazi side has everyone from folks who just want Nazis and nothing else to people that have told me that they would ban even historically relevant screencaps and humor like I posted. It is useful to know what peoples lines are. So, do you consider the examples I posted problematic?

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2530

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@doloresbridge
i don’t know what people personally want, i’m not that close to them. i’m “on the other side” simply because i agree that we should push to get nazi stuff off the website. i don’t have any close ties to anyone else involved in this, i don’t really talk to people and i was happy that there were others finally voicing their concerns about Derpibooru loud enough that i heard them and wanted to join in and pitch in my piece.

i do chat with some of the people “on the other side” because we all share a server that’s about this kind of stuff, but that’s literally it. i’m sorry i can’t give you a clean-cut answer.

edit: sorry, just noticed you were asking if i would push to remove the other problematic content in the future; personally? yes, i would. i don’t know if others would join me, tho. but at that point depending on how Derpibooru handles this current situation it may not even matter how i answer right now because i could have found a new permanent home by then.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago because: edits edits edits sorry about that

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2529

doloresbridge

Peace to all

@taaffeite I don’t want to be hostile but I earnestly want to know what the other side wants and I’ve seen narrow answers and I’ve seen wide answers and I’ve seen answers like this that say it “this now, more later”. I what to have a better hint at what you want the future of the site to be because I see a lot of vague allusions to purges and bans without a direct idea of what that looks like. What someone wants it to look like. So, would you be pushing for stuff like this to be banned in the future under rule 0?

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2528

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@doloresbridge
my net is exactly this wide:
-remove aryanne off this website
-remove any nazi content in general off this website, like ponies gassing other ponies or ponies doing the nazi salute, etc

any further changes that i mention from time to time (like homophobic/transphobic/racist posts, foalcon, etc), are things i personally would also like to see removed and while people may share my same sentiments about the changes that i wish would happen, they do not reflect the current position and goal of the “movement” i and the others are a part of. after all, i reserve the right to point out that there are numerous other problems on Derpibooru aside from the Nazi pony OC.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago because: added a link to another content example

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2527

doloresbridge

Peace to all

@taaffeite
I have one question: what does fixing this mess look like to you anyway? What does a better rule 0 look like to you.
full

Would that include the birth of Derpy Hooves for the use of the word “retard”?

full

Would that include stuff like non human context Pony racism?

You seem to be one of the ones that wants a pretty wide varity of changes and I’m curious how wide a net you’re casting here.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2526

taaffeite

@taaffeiite

@Background Pony #5C8B
yes i’m aware the rules were already changed, i have eyeballs and they do function surprisingly well. i meant changes in general, not just rule changes.

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Site and Policy » Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread » Post 2525

Background Pony #5C8B

@taaffeite

alright! excited to see what changes y’all are gonna announce

You don’t need to wait that long.
The changes aren’t a mystery. They were announced earlier in this thread.

https://derpibooru.org/forums/meta/topics/rule-0-policy-refinement-feedback-thread?post_id=4878768#post_4878768

And the updated Rule 0 is already in effect (the main changes are the first three bullet-points).

https://derpibooru.org/pages/rules

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