Unpopular opinion time

AC97

I mean you can’t have it both ways, she can’t be both a useless waste whose inclusion would be tone-deaf (and only in a meta sense, the characters obviously don’t feel that way in-story) while also being a player whose lack of appearance is a criticism that reflects poorly on her, since she’s apparently supposed to show up to give Luna the forgiveness she already unquestioningly gave her in episode 2 of the series.
How is she even supposed to win here? Celestia shows up, you say that it’s tone-deaf, and she regurgitates the same thing she already said to Luna because I guess she just needed to hear it twice?

Yep. Again, the S5 episode is more about Luna forgiving herself, her friends helping her through it, the ones she wronged most recently, not Celestia, who, to repeat, forgave her instantly in the series premiere.

Maybe the unpopular opinion is feeling like the episode wasn’t necessarily lesser without Celestia there, even though this was at least in part because of how packed in the episode was from a meta standpoint; you can argue that maybe the episode would’ve benefitted by being a two-parter, in much the same way Keep Calm and Flutter On probably would’ve, or MMC.

A “bad reason” is exactly what Luna had as well:
Ponies are sleeping during my night → cause Eternal night, turn evil when my sister asks me to lower it
I really hope that’s not considered a sensible reaction to envy.

Luna tends to get more leeway in the fandom at large because a larger majority of people like her, therefore they’re more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt in developed headcanons and such. Yes, you do get a building block or two more than Starlight did, in how her dynamic with Celestia is, but it’s still the case that at face value, it’s astronomically petty (pun intended). You can also say the same about Trixie, and how Twilight didn’t even try to do anything to her.

_{Honestly, it’s been a recurring thing for me that I think it’s potentially easier to get the mindsets of Celestia and Cadance, than it is for Luna, because I can’t help but think her characterization can be a little… muddy at times… maybe it’s just me.}

Posted 14 days ago Report

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@AC97
I do sometimes poke fun at Opaline’s “I’m gonna ruin Equestria and be mad for a thousand years because Celestia didn’t return my girl-crush” motive, but honestly aside from a scant few “reasonable” motivations, the vast majority of big MLP villains are either evil for the fun of it, or extraordinarily petty. Which is better is a matter of opinion, I suppose.

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DerpyFast

“The emotional climax of Luna’s redemption arc didn’t come from Celestia’s forgiveness”
“Luna didn’t ask Celestia for help in dealing with The Tantabus”, and
“How Celestia is characterized in general”,

are three separate issues that stem from the same source. That source being that Celestia isn’t written very well. I’m probably implying too much and stating too little.

“Emotional Climax” implies that the characters have done some work to get here. It’s the big “moment of truth” we’ve been building up to. If a story doesn’t have a climax, then there’s no story.

Luna didn’t have to do any work to earn Celestia’s forgiveness. If the show was one season long, that would be fine, if a bit underwhelming. But then she puts in a whole bunch of work to redeem herself. She builds rapport with her subjects, and shows that she’s thought long and hard about what she’s done. But there has to be some kind of moment of truth, or there’s no story. I went back and made sure that I actually posted the words:

But in the back of my mind, I know that the moment of forgiveness should have come from Celestia, since Luna’s betrayal was the inciting incident for the whole show. And that The Tantabus and DPDOMS itself only exist because Luna’s arc wouldn’t have an emotional climax otherwise.

and I did. What I’m getting at is that DPDOMS creates this disconnect. It makes you go

Hey wait a minute. Luna put in all this work to redeem herself. Shouldn’t it have gone towards rebuilding her relationship with Celestia, since her betraying Celestia is how this all started, and I understand how stories work? Kinda retroactively makes Celestia’s forgiveness feel cheap and hollow.

followed by

Oh right. They can’t do that, because that would require Celestia to have been written well.

First Place would be Luna’s arc being about making things up with Celestia. No Tantabus and no DPDOMS.

Second Place would be a version of DPDOMS that takes place in a version of the show where Celestia had been written well enough to be included.

Third Place is the version of DPDOMS that we got.

Luna was good to start with, then she overreacted, turned evil, and turned good again. Does she lose the ability to be held to any kind of standard because she used to be a villain? Why would turning evil make you less deserving of criticism?

Besides which, the Tantabus ordeal happened after her turn to good.

It’s because Luna cleans up her messes and learns from her mistakes, and Celestia gets Twilight to clean up her messes and never thinks about them again. It’s because Luna is purposefully flawed in a way that makes her interesting, and Celestia is flawed and the show pretends that she isn’t.

A “bad reason” is exactly what Luna had as well:
Ponies are sleeping during my night → cause Eternal night, turn evil when my sister asks me to lower it

I really hope that’s not considered a sensible reaction to envy.

It’s not a sensible reaction to envy, which is why Luna punishes herself for it. It’s an understandable reaction that makes narrative sense. It’s a cosmic version of a mistake that an ordinary person might make.

“I started a cult, and then travelled back in time to change history because my best friend moved away” is too weird and abstract to be relatable.

Posted 14 days ago Report

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Mr.Myoozik

Music/Charts Enthusiast

@DerpyFast
I’ll still use “overrated”, but “not really my thing” I also use in my lexicon, it just depends on how someone interprets those words since everybody is different.

I always thought Do Princesses Dream Of Magic Sheep? was a good episode and nothing else. Kleptomage’s feelings are the same as mine but I wouldn’t say that the premise was “flawed”, it accomplished what it was trying to do and I really liked the dream sequence, that was creative.

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Background Pony #F622

If anything can be gained from this whole thing, it’s that apparently liking Celestia is bad and you should feel bad for even trying to defend or be a fan of her. Everyone has to conform to Luna worship now.

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Kiryu-Chan

World's Okayest User

@Background Pony #F622
No one is saying that dude

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Mr.Myoozik

Music/Charts Enthusiast

@Background Pony #F622
I think we get it, you have a bone to pick with Luna’s fans, no need to reiterate it over and over again.

Posted 13 days ago Report

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Twi Clown

Übermensch in training

@Dragonpone
Nowadays its so common to say “the hero was the true villain and the villain was misuntlderstood”.

There’s a bone to pick with the changelings before S6 ending. Many times people argued the ponies were evil because the changelings only wanted to feed.

Ok, but if we are gonna appeal to nature, then here’s the catch: the ponies and changelings are mutually feuding (or were before Thorax), and like any natural order, if the changelings were justified in their invasion, so the ponies were justified in defending themselves since the invasion was actually being a threat to their own survival.

Remember: if someone wants to use survival of the fittest to justify villains, then the heroes by definition are not exempt and the argument also works to their favor.

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TheQuietMan

House of the Arcana

@CloudMistDragon
But what is “out of character” then? Oogway losing patience because he’s never ever seen losing it till now? I see this more like he hadn’t had his buttons pushed yet rather than he can’t get mad.

@Latecomer
Big Good is what she is. Like Oogway. Can’t do anything wrong intentional or not. That’s a very negative use of Big Good. For Celestia of course.

@Cosmas-the-Explorer
What kinda message would that bring? Then again it’s kinda done in the kart episode.

@Latecomer
Sounds quite weird when you put it that way.

@Jonny Manz
I remember some fan CMC cutie marks made before the official ones. In those, it just looked like they moved on from crusading to pursue solo careers.

@Tiger beetle
I see you read that comic. For what it’s worth, they made two really dark villains reform from all absolution of any war crimes they’ve done for albeit a shallow reason.

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Twi Clown

Übermensch in training

There’s a huge problem regarding what counts as OOC.

OOC requires the characters to behave against the established context and beliefs without a justifiable enough reason.

It requires both past context and a context within a present situation.

For example, regarding the Luna and Celestia bickering, keep in mind before most of those episodes Luna and Celestia didn’t have day-to-day interaction episodes. Celestia appeared to take care of political and security affairs and Luna as a dreamwalker, none of those actually gave us a clear view of how their relationship was behind the walls, and if anything the NMM incident reflects in Luna resenting Celestia’s popularity, so while they might love each other, seeds for rivalries and bickering are still kinda there.

And for “present time context”, many of us already noted many times the sisters had different personalities, Celestia bring the brainy extravert and Luna as the brawny introvert, the former constantly makes schemes and loves to experience the world, the later is more down to solve a problem and then rest down. So its understandable they would have conflicts regarding approaches like how to spend vacations or how to deal with each other’s jobs.

Plus Celestia always has to look regal and stoic for politicians and civilians alike, which sadly close family being the exact kind of person that wouldn’t give you the same kind of reverence, so Celestia being more irked at Luna is pretty much bog standard. Luna resenting being at Celestia’s shadow results in Luna having a more clear target for her lowest moments, plus it also means her serious and ocasionally spooky demeanor isn’t gonna intimidate Celestia on the slightest.

Because family ~~sucks~~ pushes more buttons than coworkers for example.

Posted 12 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

@Twi Clown
Disclaimer: I haven’t see A Royal Problem since it came out, so take this with grain of salt.

So imagine you’re watching Breaking Bad, and in Season Five, there’s an episode about Walt and Skyler having to make something for a bake sale, so that a club that Walter Jr. belongs to can go on a trip. They get into a disagreement, and it looks like they might split up over it. And the show treats this like serious drama. Now, by that point in the show, Walter has killed people, and Skyler had an affair, and is laundering Walt’s money.

It would seem really weird and out-of-touch, and raise a few eyebrows.

A Royal Problem creates this weird disconnect. Luna has been characterized as this wise spirit guide. For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils? is all about respecting the effort that someone else puts into something. So at best, the conflict between the two princesses feels really petty and shallow.

1,000 years have passed for Celestia, and Luna has clearly put a lot of thought into what she did. It raises questions about emotional maturity and who is a reasonable authority figure in this setting. It also raises questions about what the hell these characters have been doing for six seasons. Did they never talk about the Nightmare Moon incident and how they feel about it? Did they make absolutely zero effort at rebuilding their relationship up to that point? Did Celestia not bring Luna up to speed on how ruling Equestria works?

Posted 12 days ago Report

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Tiger beetle

Send massage.

@DerpyFast
One works day shifts, one works night shifts. Luna’s only up during the day for special occasions. It’s clear they love each other, but don’t really communicate. And these two not talking is what lead to Nightmare Moon to begin with, so yeah, it was something to be adressed. Just because people are wise and competent at their job doesn’t mean they don’t have a pettier side to them, or that they adress everyone with the same emotional intelligence. Luna working with her subjects in the Dream Realm is not the same as Luna wanting Celestia to appreciate all she does. She knows she must maintain a certain persona when working, so does Celestia, but they don’t need to put on any royal airs around each other. So, when Starlight finally makes them confront each other, they don’t hold back.

If Luna’s been back for years at this point, and these two haven’t hashed it out yet due to their diverging schedules and personalities, then the tone they took with each other makes perfect sense. Heck, maybe Celestia considers the Nightmare Moon thing to be such a sore subject for Luna that she never brings it up. Families love to avoid talking about traumas, even if they should.

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DoctorWTF

@Tiger beetle
That still raises the question of how she felt like nopony gave a damn about her when she was performing such an important job.

Though the “Nightmare Rarity” comics suggest that she was manipulated by a malevolent spirit, and it’s been speculated that she picked up the dreamwalking thing from said spirit.

Posted 11 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

@Tiger beetle
Emotionally intelligent people don’t take opportunities to stop being emotionally intelligent. Celestia had 1,000 years to think about what went wrong, and that Luna knows what it’s like to feel taken for granted. So not taking each other for granted seems like a very basic thing that they should both understand by that point. Luna should also just understand that ruling a kingdom is a lot of work.

Also, scheduling conflict is a very weak excuse. People are not hopelessly subservient to their schedules. If it’s something important, like bringing Luna up to speed on how to rule Equestira, or rebuilding one’s relationship with their estranged sister, a person can find the time.

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Tiger beetle

Send massage.

@DoctorWTF
Honestly? Probably not enough verbal support. People understimate how valuable appreciating someone’s work out loud can be. I personally prefer no outside force being involved in Nightmare Moon, but theorizing’s fun. And yeah, I know about that comic. Wasn’t a fan personally, though Nightmare Moon terrorizing Equestria with nightmares is a fun concept, and would add to Luna’s guilt.

@DerpyFast
No one is infallible, and being petty is not exactly something one plans. Just because she had a thousand years doesn’t guarantee a certain conclusion. Part of me thinks Celestia was afraid to dive into what happened. I don’t think she’d wanna discuss Nightmare Moon more than needed, Luna wasn’t exactly proud of it either. Yes, they should’ve talked about it, but both have plausible reasons for not wanting to. The fact that Luna used her Royal Canterlot Voice in ‘Luna Eclipsed’, and wasn’t informed that the Equestrian royalty doesn’t utilize it anymore proves the two of them haven’t gone in depth about many subjects.

Scheduling is harder than most people think, and I can’t imagine how hard it is when one sister’s running the country, and the other’s patrolling an entire realm of pony psyche. Also, they’d have to actually, you know, talk about finding time. And admit that their niceties being unappreciated hurts them. Sure, it’s absolutely possible they could’ve handled it better - but they got used to their undesirable status quo and only grew more bitter. Celestia and Luna clearly love each other, and they’re good at what they do, but they suck at communicating as sisters. Things like that happen all the time, especially irl.

Posted 10 days ago Report
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DerpyFast

@Tiger beetle
It always annoys me how Celestia fans talk a big game, but then don’t hold her to any standards at all.

“She’s has more than 1,000 years of life experience, but acting civil with her sister is too hard.”

“She’s a great leader, but using her time management skills to make time so that Equestria’s other rightful ruler can learn to rule properly is too hard.”

“She’s a great diplomat, but breaking down emotional barriers with the one person she really needs to is too hard.”

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Background Pony #F622

And yet Luna fans have to constantly gloat how better their Princess is to the most obnoxious degrees and act like she’s untouchable

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@Tiger beetle
It always annoys me how Celestia fans talk a big game, but then don’t hold her to any standards at all.

Nearly every post you’ve made on the subject drives the point that almost everything bad that has been done to Luna or Luna has done herself is her sister’s fault, whether she was actually there or not. And even if something ever is Luna’s fault, it’s not a big deal, not even when they’re world-threatening or the direct result of her own actions.

Quod erat demonstrandum: Despite the fact that one’s interactions with another are a two person job, Celestia is the one receiving the majority of the reprimands for it, and Luna is treated as a child who doesn’t need any standards at all. Luna was the one who got so bitter she turned out the sky, and Luna was the one who turned evil when Celestia tried to talk to her about it the last time.

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Icicle Niceicle 1517

Ocs,Boops,Tickles&Memes

~~cadance is still best princess :P~~

Also onto other opinions that are not this topic…

I don’t hate any of the Mane 6, but Rainbow Dash is my least favourite of the bunch.

Pinkie Pie is a close second depending on the episode. I can like her most of the time but when she get’s “Extra” Pinkie, it gets annoying

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@Icicle Niceicle 1517

Rainbow Dash is my least favourite of the bunch.

Now this I can agree with.

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Tiger beetle

Send massage.

@DerpyFast
Because doing your job and interacting with a family member are not the same thing.

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Jonny Manz

I am who I am

@Icicle Niceicle 1517
Yeah, same, I don’t hate (or even dislike) any of the Mane 6 (from either generation) but in both generations my least favorite of the group is the one that’s the most “stable”, so to speak - so Applejack for G4, and Hitch for G5

Posted 10 days ago Report
Edited 10 days ago because: Making clear it’s a reply

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@Jonny Manz
Actually I think I’d like Applejack more if they let her be the straight man more often. I’ve not made any kind of empirical list, but AJ seems to be given the “become stupid so the plot can happen” moments more than any of them.

I think she’s a lot of fun when she’s the only sane mare.

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Jonny Manz

I am who I am

@Dragonpone
That’s fair

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Icicle Niceicle 1517

Ocs,Boops,Tickles&Memes

least favourite characters are AJ and Hitch

~~ur dead to me >:c~~

@Dragonpone
This. I like it when AJ acts like the “mom friend” of the group. Her being the only sane pony in the group compared to how batshit all the others can be sometimes is a good contrast

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