@DiscipleOfAndrewRyan  
you know what? I take it all back. Glim Glam is second to Discord in being best reformed villain.
 
 
@Angrybrony  
table.

@ILoveMyoozik  
no.

I love both.  

@Background Pony #2227  
Dude, this argument ended a while ago. Let It Go.

@Angrybrony  

 

dammit, Drakey! now I’m starting to dislike good Sunset less and less… ;^;
 
_{pretty much happens with anything ShimmerGlimmer. :/
 
^{good job, bro. ;)}}

I get along with Sunset fans too! Am I a special snowflake now?! :D

@Scrounge  
It was sincere, which is why we should agree to disagree. I will not continue further for the sake of respecting your opinions and respecting the time of the year.
 
On a sidenote, you did bring up something that neither of us have an answer for….
 
…would Starswirled’s attitude been the same if he was introduced without Starlight, or more specifically, right after S4E26? Right after we learned he befriended a demon lord’s brother? Or was the dickish aspect of his personality yet another shill for Starlight?
 
We’ll never know. It’s just some interesting food for thought.
 
Anyway, I’m unsubscribing to this page for the holidays.
 
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays :)

@CronoM  
See, none of this strikes me as being any worse than things that are completely fine when the happen to other characters. For just one example, how did Rarity wind up at that Wonderbolts show with Rainbow Dash again, rather than pretty much any other of the Mane Six, or even Scootaloo?
 
(Also, some of it seems a lot more reasonable to me due to certain details that probably don’t make a difference to you.)
 
Also, thanks for the sentiment (if it’s sincere, I honestly can’t tell), but I don’t really do holidays. Enjoy yours, though.
 
@CronoM  

 
…She was sent? I was under the impression it was her idea, which explains why the plan was a bit… How do I put this?… not retarded so much as lobotomized.
 
(Hey, just ‘cause I like her now doesn’t mean I have any illusions about her judgment. Even if nothing else had gone wrong, anyone who expects Trixie to be helpful probably deserves to fail.)
 
 
@CronoM  

 
In all fairness, A: I did say BETWEEN the start and the climax, and B: Star Swirl being a dick would be its own issue even if Starlight had been eaten by quarray eels mid-season.
 
 
@CronoM  

 
Part of it is that Juniper showed the most visible symptoms, partly it’s a matter of degrees, but I think a big part of it is this:
 
Juniper may have been a shill for Starlight, but she didn’t do a very good job of it. At no point did Starlight come across as special, rather than simply being the last one left, spared only because Juniper didn’t recognize her; the last monkey with the last typewriter. And her failure to measure up to previous villains means that opposing her is correspondingly less impressive than it would be to stand against true menaces like the Dazzlings or Midnight Sparkle. (The Storm King likewise fails to intimidate, and to me it’s one of the biggest flaws in The Movie.) And when Starlight manages to talk her down, it doesn’t seem like anything Sunset (or even Sci-Twi) couldn’t have done if given the chance.

@Scrounge  
“You skipped pretty much every S7 episode she was in, I’m assuming?”
 
Nope! :D
 
“Or did she push Pinkie and Maud aside in their episode where she had less screentime, focus, or importance than either of them?”
 
‘Pushing aside’ and ‘Intruding awkwardly’ aren’t exactly synonyms, but neither are exactly pleasant. Especially considering ‘awkward self-insertion’ was kind of an unfortunate motif of post S5-Starlight to begin with.
 
It was so awkward they had to resort to talking about kites. KITES. Oh and a sense of being treated differently because Maud acts odd and everyone treated Starlight as a recovering villain oh wait that didn’t happen in Starlight’s story, it happened to Discord and Sunset but never Starlight what the hell was that episode on about?
 
“Is it contrived that she’d be the one doing the planning if her only help is freaking Trixie?”
 
I’m still wrapping my head around the idea of sending the person who cursed the princesses 7 episodes back along with the local adora-narcissist as goodwill ambassadors to a budding Changeling country still trying to sort out its morals. Don’t get me wrong, Trixie may be charming and adorable, but I wouldn’t exactly call her ambassador material.
 
Heck, my head is still spinning on how or why they swam away from the solid scenario of Starlight doing magical research in the Crystal Empire while occasionally going on tour with Trixie. Could of helped setup tons of interesting side stories or webisodes involving the Crystal Empire.
 
“Did she do something big between the start and climax of “Shadow Play” other than fret and get brushed off and I missed it somehow?”
 
Is…is that a rhetorical question?
 
You mean besides being the “BIG gun’ to Twilight’s “Main Gun” for chasing off the big bad, and the punchline of the two parter being Starlight showed up everybody with her moral insights…The main characters, their predecessors and especially Starswirled the Bearded, wizard supreme and legendary befriender of the Brother of Evil Incarnate, Scorpan?
 
Anyway, never mind all that. Eggnog should not be made with sour milk (or whatever analogy fits best).
 
Merry Christmas to you too! :D

@starslayer159  
Everything you just said was incorrect interpretation on every level, but then again we already just established we think on completely different wavelengths and this conversation is a waste of both of our times.
 
So I will be blunt as well.
 
…
 
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! SEE YA! :D

@CronoM  
You skipped pretty much every S7 episode she was in, I’m assuming? Or did she push Pinkie and Maud aside in their episode where she had less screentime, focus, or importance than either of them? Is it contrived that she’d be the one doing the planning if her only help is freaking Trixie? Did she do something big between the start and climax of “Shadow Play” other than fret and get brushed off and I missed it somehow?

@CronoM  
I will be blunt. The person who made this post is expressing a desire, a wish almost, that people who like these characters wouldn’t fight or argue. Your response to this is not to respectfully put aside your complaints and opinions and wait for a more appropriate time and place, but to make sure everyone here reading knows that Starlight sucks and Sunset is awesome. I learned a long time ago not to judge people by their first impression, but this is jerk thing to do, almost as if you want to start something.  
On top of which, you are insulting, dismissive of others opinions, while also stating your own opinions as facts. You haven’t even asked my opinion on Mirror Magic, you seem to think you already know it. If one of us is being biased here, it isn’t me, or I would have walked away long ago.

@Scrounge  
Of course Starlight is not horrible in every second she’s in frame, that would be a gross exaggeration. However, most conflicts involving Starlight in general take the Juniper route in forcing Starlight to be the solution to every problem despite all reason.
 
Juniper was just an extension of the normal Starlight narrative. There was little difference between the EG special with Starlight and any other post S5 plot Starlight’s in. I suppose the only difference is the level of forcing the show needed to create a Starlight plot was a little more in the face then usual due to the setting. It wasn’t an awkward episode because Juniper could only be written as an awkward villain. Juniper was an awkward villain BECAUSE they needed an awkward villain for Starlight to defeat in the human world where she had no powers and no experience.
 
To put it simply…
 
The criticism the EG special got from Starlight fans and Starlight haters was basically the exact same as the normal post-S6 Starlight criticism but amplified. That’s not a coincidence.
 
Juniper had limited potential as a villain, don’t get me wrong, but we can’t put all the blame on her for being in a Starlight episode. That would be kind of cruel.

@starslayer159  
I’m not talking about the average Starlight fans, I’m talking about the people who want to be immediately identified as die-hard Starlight fans who wear the online equivalent of a T-shirt with Starlight on it. Statistically, you are far more likely to be biased and defensive for Sunset then an average Starlight fan, and you have done little to prove otherwise.
 
Not every Starlight fan is going to be as hardcore a Starlight fan as you are. You know this.
 
“ thats just you jumping to her defense because I dared to criticize her.”
 
Again, that’s just in your head. I was pointing out the incredibly obvious contradiction of you giving a misconstruing statement about Sunset to highlight Starlight in comparison, then saying you have no issues with Sunset at all. Objectively, the fandom has a lot less detractors of EG2 and post EG2 Sunset then they have with Starlight as a whole. Its pretty safe to say that while not everyone likes Sunset, Sunset is not a divisive character in the fandom like Starlight is.
 
“Choosing to only be critical of one character, and then put another character on a pedestal over them, even when you know neither character is perfect isn’t being critical, it’s playing favorites.”
 
Which is why I don’t play favorites. Sunset has her flaws but I dislike Starlight far more because she’s far more horribly written, not because of preference or anything like that. Some characters are just worse written then others, and that’s a fact.
 
(shakes head) The idea that I have to play favorites too see more writing problems in a character with far bigger and overall more divisive writing problems then the other character is a COMPLETELY absurd concept. You are talking about a scenario where, somehow, objectively, two characters have to have the exact same amount of flaws.
 
…
 
That’s not logical, that’s COMPLETELY insane and beyond the realm of possibility.
 
If you actually think that way, we have completely incompatible mind sets. I told you this conversation would be fruitless. Lets just agree to disagree.

@CronoM  
Starlight was at least okay during her moments with Sunset. Juniper and her mirror, despite a few funny moments, were basically a cheap way to take the main cast out of play. I’ll admit Starlight got more than her share of screen time, but at least she wasn’t a walking plot device. The whole thing was a cheap shot. But yeah, I guess it wasn’t about Juniper as a villain, per se, and more that she was basically the tool for implementing everything that was bullshit about Mirror Magic. That she was a crappy villain, and that she’s as guilty of hogging screen time as Starlight is, don’t help, but they’re side issues.

@CronoM  
“Starlight fans can’t have an unbiased conversation about her.” Wow, arrogant much? Great attempt to try and shame someone from expressing their opinion based on a profile avatar, but it just makes you come across as petty and closed-minded. A picture doesn’t invalidate anything I have to say.
 
As for the rest of this long winded reply, I didn’t point out the problems Sunset has(and I didn’t even mention all of them, just two) to say she worse than Starlight, I didn’t even say anything approaching that, thats just you jumping to her defense because I dared to criticize her. I pointed out those problems because, despite whether you think one is better than the other, neither is perfect. Any attempt to use any sort of ‘criticism’ to say one is better than the other is silly, because they can both be dissected into pieces by doing so.
 
And yes I enjoy characters because of the great things they bring to the table, not how much I can criticize them. The points I brought up about Sunset are real ‘problems’, but they aren’t as important as the good things she brings. Sunsets old personality was murdered to make her a good Twilight replacement, BUT she has a great story of external struggle as she tries to prove she’s a different person. Starlight was forgiven with little consequences, BUT she has a great story of internal struggle as she tries to rebuild her entire world view and become a better person. Just because I’m able to forgive both characters their flaws to enjoy their strengths, it doesn’t mean I don’t know those flaws exist.  
A real critic doesn’t just criticize thing they hate, they criticize everything. Choosing to only be critical of one character, and then put another character on a pedestal over them, even when you know neither character is perfect isn’t being critical, it’s playing favorites. There are all kinds of reasons to choose a favorite character that doesn’t involve telling other people their favorite character sucks, maybe you should try it sometime.

@starslayer159  
(cont.)  
And before you reply back, I want to preface something.
 
Every time a mlp fan metaphorically walks in front of me claiming to give an unbiased defence of Starlight while wearing a Starlight T-shirt, it hurts my brain to accept such lack of self awareness exists. You are not a casual Starlight fan, you are not going to have an open mind about hate towards Starlight, you are not going to take off your Starlight T-shirt/userid during the conversation, etc., etc. You are one of the people who literally want people to identify you as a Starlight fan before you even say a word. And that’s fine, more power to you, but you have to understand no one will ever, EVER consider you unbiased in any sort of debate regarding Starlight.
 
There is absolutely no reason for us to talk to each other because it WILL be completely pointless. I promise to listen to you but will never listen to me. If communication doesn’t go two ways, the reason for debate goes out the window. If we continue talking we will be completely wasting each others time.
 
So I suggest we stop this before it even starts, and we agree to disagree.

@starslayer159  
“Being critical doesn’t elevate your opinion over others”
 
Of course not. Its just an opinion. What sort of backwards nonsense are you talking about? Nothing is special about my critiques. They’re just opinions, no more, no less. Your idea of how a critic thinks is just a biased fabrication of your imagination, and not my problem.
 
“because I don’t base my enjoyment of a character on how much I can criticize them.”
 
So you like everything equally no matter how detestable or critiquable you find a character?
 
“nor does it mean people can’t react negatively to what you say.”
 
Well, sure, if you get off screaming at critics, that’s your deal. HOWEVER, if your going to tell off critics on something that is most definitely divisive in a fandom, that’s never a healthy solution. The whole thing about “divisive” issues is that the issues are large enough bearing on the issues for large groups of people to dislike, not a tiny minority.
 
You don’t HAVE to like the criticisms. But they are going to persist, and you CAN ignore them without spreading more hate to critiques. You are NEVER going to find that one argument that topples a divisive issue because such an argument doesn’t exist.
 
To quote that youtube video, Teen Titans Know at 1:00,
 
Strawman: “This isn’t criticism. Its one of those haters gonna hate situations”  
Counterpoint: “Don’t you think there might be a reason for all this hate?”  
Strawman: “YES. That reason being…haters gonna hate.”  
Counterpoint: (facepalm)
 
“…your just picking favorites…”
 
Maybe people like Sunset and actually WANT to have her as one of their favorites because, quite simply, she is well written, maybe or maybe not better written then Starlight, and your description of her….
 
““For example, if you think the most blatant worfing of a main character in the entire series combined with just instantly making Sunset not just a part of the group, but the hero they needed out of nowhere makes her redemption better than Starlight’s, then I have to say you aren’t actually being critical”
 
….is simply a misconstruing summarization that omits and fabricates many good things about her character for the sake of your argument, one that’s transparent and meaningless.
 
AND, if I’m going to be perfectly, 100% honest…if I had seen every single Starlight episode and had no idea who the hell Sunset Shimmer was and I took your word for Sunset, I’d ponder if Sunset was a bad character but still a better character then Starlight.
 
Plus, you say you don’t hate Sunset, so the only reason for your conversation fabrication is your own argument. It doesn’t actually mean anything to you personally, just your argument; it was just to break Sunset down to build Starlight up.
 
“ And I certainly don’t go around offering my ‘critiques’ like my opinion is so damn important that everyone has to hear them.”
 
You just did about Sunset. :/ And again, there is nothing special about my opinion. This idea of yours you’ve built about me and/or critiques in general is just a fabrication of your own mind. Nothing more.
 
….

@CronoM  
And some “critics” refuses to admit that just because you have an opinion, it doesn’t mean anyone has to respect it, our you. Being critical doesn’t elevate your opinion over others, nor does it mean people can’t react negatively to what you say.  
For example, if you think the most blatant worfing of a main character in the entire series combined with just instantly making Sunset not just a part of the group, but the hero they needed out of nowhere makes her redemption better than Starlight’s, then I have to say you aren’t actually being critical, your just picking favorites and nitpicking one character to say she’s worse than the other.  
I have no problems with Starlight, and I have no problems with Sunset, because I don’t base my enjoyment of a character on how much I can criticize them. And I certainly don’t go around offering my ‘critiques’ like my opinion is so damn important that everyone has to hear them.

@Scrounge  
I don’t see how Juniper being crappy has any effect on Starlight staying a consistent creator’s pet…If she was being out of character or out of place, sure, but EG just treated her like FiM treats her. Despite being sent to the human world, nothing changed in the normal Starlight Glimmer narrative. Things stayed consistent.
 
Whether people like the creator’s pet position Starlight is in is more to people’s preference, although it is objectively a more divisive a subject among fans then many characters and plot devices. Like EG1 Flash or Twilight becoming a princess. They are characters and ideas that are or were in the same boat.
 
….
 
Its a muddy subject….especially when you consider FMC, or ‘Fandom Moral Compromising’. Y’know, the type of people who would of hated the idea if it was pitched to them in all its details before it was even remotely hinted at being official….
 
..but then to enjoy the show that they love overall once the idea is actually introduced, they will convince themselves they like it and even slam other people for hating on it even though other critics mirrored their own foresight. They tell other people to stop complaining about things that are completely reasonable things to complain about. Happens all the time.
 
Anti-critics can be some of the most miserable and aggressive people in fandoms.
 
(shrug) Me? I like what I like and I don’t like what I don’t like. Seems like common sense but for some people its tricky. Some anti-critiques will not willingly admit when some character or some idea is blatantly divisive within the fandom. That doesn’t mean being right or wrong, just the issue is controversial enough for a lot of people to have misgivings about it.  
For example. what I like is simple:  
-I didn’t like Sunset Shimmer in EG1, but I loved her in EG2 and after because I could feel the effort and love put into rebuilding her character  
-I was lukewarm about Starlight’s identity as a pony but I at least liked her S5 persona and charisma, but nothing about post S5 Starlight I found relatable or likable or having even any sense of effort put into her character. There is no reason for me to ever be ashamed for giving my opinion on that whenever I want, so long as it isn’t spamming of course.  
-Flash Sentry was a painful idea to me in EG1, he felt superfluous in EG2 and EG3, but I actually liked Flash in EG4 because he was actually demonstrating some effort in his identity and emotions to help Sunset out.
 
….
 
So in regards to this picture…
 
I’m glad the two get along. I think that Sunset is currently a well written character, and that Starlight is currently a badly written character. Its as simple as that.

@Background Pony #A660  
I think that’s mostly Juniper’s fault. She’s cute, but she was a pretty crappy villain

@DJPon3dogg  
Starlight saved the day (creator’s pet) and the main cast were captured (useless) again sooooo…

@DJPon3dogg  
there are no bad opinions. Just people who don’t want to think about the possibility of being wrong.

@Background Pony #A660