Debate thread: About downvoting (modnote:no, not being removed again)

@Zeb  
thanks.
 
really describes a lot of people on this site tbh

@ice1517  
Not really, imo. It IS a big stretch to believe people won’t complain about a feature changing abruptly without warning beforehand. Yeah all staff knew it was in the works for literally YEARS, but it even caught me off guard.

@Background Pony #BD48  
Possibly. Though I believe then the only difference would be having added the hide button, while downvotes remain exactly the same.
 
I’m for keeping the hide button no matter what’s settled on with the d/v. Though I’ve seen several interesting options when it comes to downvotes.  
Limited numbers per day.  
Affecting the score differently than they do now, but still visible.
 
There’s been interesting ideas thrown about. But I don’t believe we’d know how well any would actually work without seeing it in action. And testing different ones over periods of time could be both confusing, and a strain on the devs making them produce different versions of this.

@LightningBolt  
downvotes being good or bad is a matter of opinion, and both sides have valid arguments yeah. i’m calling people out for not being able to keep their diapers on long enough to give the new system a chance before going full hugbox over it.

@DanielTepesKraus  
IDK how people saw that change as turning Derpibooru into a “hugbox”.

@ice1517  
it’s also a pretty savage case of pots and kettles, when you think about it. but… that’s a topic for another thread.

@DanielTepesKraus  
I guess so…
 
On topic, I still think that replacing the downvotes with the hide button is/was a good idea.

@LightningBolt  

 
With you on that!
 
@Background Pony #BD48  

 
I have a feeling that’d backfire spectacularly, but considering that we actually have guidelines for downvoting that no one seems to be aware of, that info could be worth including as a notification for new users and/or everyone for their first couple of downvotes…
 
 
@Zeb  
The limited number of downvotes is one thing I just have no idea on, but maybe a poll on that specific thing could give you the feedback you need without dev time and unit testing.
 
 
@ice1517  

 
Very simple - if everything’s positive, and you’re not allowed to express a negative opinion, that’s the very definition of a “hugbox.” That, from the people who saw downvotes as the sanctioned way to express a negative opinion, which is kind of why this entire debate is happening.

@WingbeatPony  
A system where you need to give feedback on why you downvoted something would just be a waste, since people would just type in something simple like “its shit” or some gibberish or whatever just to get it out of the way.
 
Also couldn’t you still leave negative comments on images? (I mean we still have people complaining about stuff on images all the time).
 
I thought the rule was that it is ok to leave negative comments as long as you are not an asshole about it?

@ice1517  
Yes, that is what I was saying to the background pony. What I was suggesting instead was not a feedback box, but just a “readme” like we have on the upload page. I understand that’s not going to be very effective either, just a better spin on his suggestion.
 
As for comments and negative feedback, that last line was explaining the mindset of those calling the removal of downvotes a “hugbox,” to the best of my understanding.

So yesterday was a total clusterfudge…
 
Here are my thoughts on the subject: I’m against downvotes, however I understand they have a place in community moderation as Background Pony #BD48 mentioned a while back. I just don’t see them as a great method for improving one self, and it’d be much better to leave a constructive comment on making said image/style better. Seeing numerous red arrows on an image that I made, especially one that’s drawn decently (imo) without no costructive critique doesn’t do much for me in improving my flaws. What really irks me is the pettiness of some users giving the votes like for example one user downvoting a good questionable Sunset Shimmer image because the resolution was too much for his browser instead of moving on.
 
I’m definitely for having the hide button and/or putting a cap on downvotes used on the booru. The latter could curb the massive downvoters and have them contemplate on whether they should use their vote or not.
 
Edit:  
Oh yeah, about the feature lasting a few hours. While it would’ve been nice to announce it to have people prepared, I can’t help but feel users would still panic and spew more bile at the mods for initiating it.

If its possible.
 
KEEP THE DOWNVOTES! But I’m all in favour of adding a Hide button that serves a similar purpose as the Fave button just that it blocks the images you have it active on and places it in a list one if they choose to in their discretion to look over them allowing them to unblock some images they choose to unblock.
 
Might I suggest a system that disables the upvote and down votes function for unregistered users and accounts that are under 2 months old and have less than 100 comments in them?  
Its not fool proof. But I see it as a deterrence against those who intend to abuse multiple accounts to downvite stuff.  
They will only be able to fave or hide until they meet the prerequisite.
 
Some subbreddits have a system like it where an account must reach a certain number of scores before they can post something and have it appear on the main part of the subreddit.

Would you rather people have the option to down vote?  
Or do you prefer risk emboldening assholes on this site to flood their biles in the comment sections?  
Cause I TOTALLY cannot see that becoming and absolute nightmare for the users and moderation team on this site.
 
Part of the appeal of this site is the vast array of options one may review and/or rate art. I really think you should stick to the system that you’ve built the reputation of this site upon. Lest you risk alienating a significant chunk of your longtime user base.
 
 
The down votes are there for people who wish to express their disapproval but not want to get involved in a fray in the comment section.

Stack Overflow?
 
Users must acquire a certain amount of reputation before being able to cast votes?

@byte[]  
That sounds reasonable. Thoughts, anyone?

@byte[]  
That wasn’t what I had in mind.  
But just some kind of deterrence that I think of that would be as fair as possible, that’s all.

@ice1517  
Hey now. That’s pretty far from characterizing the arguments we’ve made to keep downvotes, or the various different  
proposals and analyses put forward.
 
Thing is, it’s a nebulous concept without any quantifiable goals, so a lot is going to come down to opinion. Someone not accepting your points in favor of theirs is no more a temper tantrum than you not accepting their points.
 
It comes to different values and perceptions on the issue.
 
Some view it as honesty vs. silencing honest opinions. After all, we want to get good at art, and the first and most important step in that is knowing we’re terrible or not as good as others, and others are showing us we could be better by example. A lot of people stagnate at a pretty bad level on Deviantart because they don’t get that honest feedback and don’t get that incentive. That’s where “deviantart-tier” is born.
 
That, and if you search images with score.lte:-50, you’ll see why downvote is so important. Because some things just need to be downvoted.
 
But more than that, it’s also the sentiment of the whole “everybody wins” sort of mentality that plagues the modern era, that only serves to make “winning” feel hollow.
 
That, and in the end, it just makes it so bad troll pieces of horrible quality get better score than pretty decent works. How do you think that makes artists feel?
 

 
@chucklefarts  
It’s the same sort of flavor as what I mentioned earlier about upvotes earning downvotes, but a lot more fullproof since they can’t just make an account and throw random upvotes everywhere to get more downvote points. So I like it.
 

 
@DanielTepesKraus  

2 months and 100 comments as prerequisites before a newly registered user can vote at all.
 
Fave and Hide function should be available from the get go.

@SeraphimDawn  
But doesn’t favoriting something automatically upvote it?

@SeraphimDawn  
Sounds pretty darn solid. A little annoying to newcomers but it’ll really just cause the votes to be viewed with more respect. I think it’s pretty understandable. One thing to watch out for is it would slightly incentivize stealing account info, but I’m sure the passwords and sensitive data already have good encryptions and such.
 
Question for the mods; how many votes on an image are typically made by people who meet those criteria? Like just some random pics. Like these I just randomly pulled >>1494981 >>1494764 >>1494464
 
I wonder if average scores will be much lower as a result of this :q
 
Not a show-stopper (like the CMCs putting on a talent show) but something that potentially should be adjusted for.

@Chicago Ted  
You can also upvote without faving and manually undo the upvote without unfaving.  
They are technically separate functions. But as of current, a fave is a automatic upvote for some reason I don’t know why when one can fave and undo the upvote, even downvote and still get to keep the image in their faves if the users please.
 
I think it’s possible to disable the voting system for newcomers without compromising their ability to fave or hide before they reach their prerequisites.

@SeraphimDawn  
Maybe you like it but want to downvote it because Downvote needs your strength.
 
Downvoting gives her power.  

@SeraphimDawn  

 
This is an idea that I think might work. One hundred posts seems a bit high (not everyone is an avid commenter), but some number of comments to show contribution to the site would maybe make a good prerequisite. I suspect most people who use the site for its intended purpose just come here, look at art, and then leave without saying anything, which is why I think 100 comments sounds pretty high. It should still do a lot to curtail people who use multiple accounts just to spam downvotes though.
 
The only flaw I see with this, and it is sort of a big one, is that with fewer people voting overall then most newer images from that point forward would receive fewer votes, both up and down, than older ones, and would get pushed further down when searching for images by score, even if they deserve to be higher.
 
Honestly, I prefer the system as it is. Sure, it’s open for abuse, but any other system would be flawed in its own way. When it comes to searching for images I find this site to be way ahead of many others thanks to its scoring system. From the viewer’s side of things, the typical user of this site, the upvote/downvote system is an invaluable resource when searching for art, and despite some occasional flaws it serves its purpose excellently.

@someguy26  
I think the userbase here of longtime users is already massive enough to make new images trend.  
Besides, new images will trend with however little votes they get above others, I presume.
 
Maybe reduce the comment amount to 50 or 10? Or just place the time duration before one is allowed to vote?

@SeraphimDawn  
@someguy26  

 
Just a quick note: Unregistered users are already unable to vote. Either up or down. [Clicking the buttons just takes you to the log-in page]