Background Pony #9312
Nazis are bad. Fact.
There is no further discussion necessary.
There is no further discussion necessary.
I am ANTI-CENSORSHIP. Change my mind.
Background Pony #5BE2
@Coco
You don’t consider a pony with the regalia of a hateful group interacting with a bunch of lovable colorful cartoon horses satirical?
You don’t consider a pony with the regalia of a hateful group interacting with a bunch of lovable colorful cartoon horses satirical?
Background Pony #5BE2
@Background Pony #9312
No further discussion needed on that seeing as you’re the only one having it.
No further discussion needed on that seeing as you’re the only one having it.
Background Pony #F186
/pol/ is an echochamber
Anonymity helps very little, and yeah there is a certain level of hivemind on 4chan. It’s just all illusion if you believe differently. The anonymity permits astroturfing ideas, and anonymity can be exploited in many ways. Often you are mocked to hell by just posting things they don’t like. Not because you are posting stupid things, but because it’s something they don’t like. I’m not talking about stupid opinions, it’s right to mock stupid opinion. But try to just post a “trans” character on /mlp/ and see if there is no hive mind and there is “free speech”. Mob hate en masse is just another form of censorship hidden behind the illusion of free speech.
Don’t think I’ve ever saw an “echo chamber” there.
/pol/ is an echochamber
Anonymity helps very little, and yeah there is a certain level of hivemind on 4chan. It’s just all illusion if you believe differently. The anonymity permits astroturfing ideas, and anonymity can be exploited in many ways. Often you are mocked to hell by just posting things they don’t like. Not because you are posting stupid things, but because it’s something they don’t like. I’m not talking about stupid opinions, it’s right to mock stupid opinion. But try to just post a “trans” character on /mlp/ and see if there is no hive mind and there is “free speech”. Mob hate en masse is just another form of censorship hidden behind the illusion of free speech.
Coco 
@Background Pony #5BE2
no, because it’s not satirical in that context. it’s being created and supported by actual white supremacists, /mlpol/ stands as proof of that. i’ve yet to see any art depicting the nazi ponies that even comes close to the cleverness and thought put into something like the great dictator.
no nazi would genuinely enjoy the great dictator as satire because it is unambiguously critical of them, you cannot say the same for 99% of nazi ponies.
no, because it’s not satirical in that context. it’s being created and supported by actual white supremacists, /mlpol/ stands as proof of that. i’ve yet to see any art depicting the nazi ponies that even comes close to the cleverness and thought put into something like the great dictator.
no nazi would genuinely enjoy the great dictator as satire because it is unambiguously critical of them, you cannot say the same for 99% of nazi ponies.
Background Pony #5BE2
@Coco
So for something to be legitimate satire to you, it needs to be a hyper clever piece of work that is rendered inert if even a single person of the group its supposed to be parodying enjoys it.
People like you scare me on this site far more than whatever nazi boogeyman you try to gin up to justify herding everyone into your extremely narrow and restricting worldview. Everything must meet your ridiculously high standards or its evil, painting yourself as some moral paragon. I don’t trust the morality of people like you who see the world almost completely in us v them. They tend to be incapable of seeing their own faults.
So for something to be legitimate satire to you, it needs to be a hyper clever piece of work that is rendered inert if even a single person of the group its supposed to be parodying enjoys it.
People like you scare me on this site far more than whatever nazi boogeyman you try to gin up to justify herding everyone into your extremely narrow and restricting worldview. Everything must meet your ridiculously high standards or its evil, painting yourself as some moral paragon. I don’t trust the morality of people like you who see the world almost completely in us v them. They tend to be incapable of seeing their own faults.
Armagedonus 
Small reminder, that if you wish to censor others to make sure only “correct” opinions and values are displayed, then you effectively wish to attack others for “wrongthink”.
Also small reminder that real fascists, communist and other regimes could only exist by allowing only ONE way of thinking and by destroying ANY kind of opposition, be it action or word.
We already have perfect compromise in idea of filters - instead forcing site to take a stance, we tailor site to our preferences.
ANYTHING MORE and it is just censorship, regardless of how well thought out it is.
TL;DR - Do NOT thread on freedom of others, just use filters.
Also small reminder that real fascists, communist and other regimes could only exist by allowing only ONE way of thinking and by destroying ANY kind of opposition, be it action or word.
We already have perfect compromise in idea of filters - instead forcing site to take a stance, we tailor site to our preferences.
ANYTHING MORE and it is just censorship, regardless of how well thought out it is.
TL;DR - Do NOT thread on freedom of others, just use filters.
Background Pony #F186
Man I agree to keep nazi satirical things, but when something is for propaganda is quite clear, there is no doubt about that. And keeping those things is to enable those things. A free speech movement that enables the propaganda of the same authoritarian ideology that wants to kill free speech is a paradox. That is why I used the word “useful idiots”.
@Coco
So for something to be legitimate satire to you, it needs to be a hyper clever piece of work that is rendered inert if even a single person of the group its supposed to be parodying enjoys it.People like you scare me on this site far more than whatever nazi boogeyman you try to gin up to justify herding everyone into your extremely narrow and restricting worldview. Everything must meet your ridiculously high standards or its evil, painting yourself as some moral paragon. I don’t trust the morality of people like you who see the world almost completely in us v them. They tend to be incapable of seeing their own faults.
Man I agree to keep nazi satirical things, but when something is for propaganda is quite clear, there is no doubt about that. And keeping those things is to enable those things. A free speech movement that enables the propaganda of the same authoritarian ideology that wants to kill free speech is a paradox. That is why I used the word “useful idiots”.
Infinite Winter 
Go to Ponybooru
Let me say few words about this issue:
The idea of normalization is false, and it was proven time and time again. You can not normalize something just by shoving it in someones face. At least to adult individuals. It is the same “Video games cause violence” over and over again. However, I think that the “enabling” concept is real, but people heed to have some preexisting biases to be affected by it. Very few people have those.
Then there is a slippery slope. Some say this is a compete fallacy, but for one reason it works. And this reason is the wording of the problem. If you say that “Showing X promotes X sympathizers” it enables an ability to apply it to every term possible. And then anything even remotely related to “X” becomes bad. I really don’t want to delve into the recent events in America, but let’s look at it on the example of toppling statues:
First, they said that statues of Confederates are promoting slavery and racism, so they must go. Most agreed with that.
Then, they said that about statues of Presidents and Abolishes, because they also promote racism and slavery, for some reason.
And to top it all, they destroyed the elk statue, because elks are apparently very racist and slave owners
I don’t understand why after all this events people are still saying that slippery slope is not real.
Most people know that Nazis are bad and Nazi ideology is flawed at its core. And also most people know that the best way radicalize people is to create an echo chamber. That’s why the “Iron Curtain” existed. That’s why “The Great Chinese Firewall” exists. That’s why only leaders of North Korea have an access to global internet.
Also I highly recommend to watch Jojo Rabbit movie. Yes, that movie about a kid with imaginary friend Hitler. Also THIS video. It is about said movie so it contains some spoilers.
The idea of normalization is false, and it was proven time and time again. You can not normalize something just by shoving it in someones face. At least to adult individuals. It is the same “Video games cause violence” over and over again. However, I think that the “enabling” concept is real, but people heed to have some preexisting biases to be affected by it. Very few people have those.
Then there is a slippery slope. Some say this is a compete fallacy, but for one reason it works. And this reason is the wording of the problem. If you say that “Showing X promotes X sympathizers” it enables an ability to apply it to every term possible. And then anything even remotely related to “X” becomes bad. I really don’t want to delve into the recent events in America, but let’s look at it on the example of toppling statues:
First, they said that statues of Confederates are promoting slavery and racism, so they must go. Most agreed with that.
Then, they said that about statues of Presidents and Abolishes, because they also promote racism and slavery, for some reason.
And to top it all, they destroyed the elk statue, because elks are apparently very racist and slave owners
I don’t understand why after all this events people are still saying that slippery slope is not real.
Most people know that Nazis are bad and Nazi ideology is flawed at its core. And also most people know that the best way radicalize people is to create an echo chamber. That’s why the “Iron Curtain” existed. That’s why “The Great Chinese Firewall” exists. That’s why only leaders of North Korea have an access to global internet.
Also I highly recommend to watch Jojo Rabbit movie. Yes, that movie about a kid with imaginary friend Hitler. Also THIS video. It is about said movie so it contains some spoilers.
Coco
@Background Pony #5BE2
sigh
once again you’re putting words in my mouth and drawing your own conclusions. i don’t think that every satirical piece of media needs to be so blatant or clever with its approach.
in this specific context, nazis, and the holocaust. it’s a very sensitive subject to most of the world because most of the people in the world would have been targeted had hitler had his way. so yeah, one needs to treat the whole situation with gratuitous amounts of tact. this isn’t a controversial opinion whatsoever.
it’s unfortunately important to make sure that one is mocking the nazis in the most unambiguous way because, well, theyre nazis. they’re already dipshits to begin with, and they need to know that everyone thinks that. lest they confuse satire with celebration and start getting comfortable.
sigh
once again you’re putting words in my mouth and drawing your own conclusions. i don’t think that every satirical piece of media needs to be so blatant or clever with its approach.
in this specific context, nazis, and the holocaust. it’s a very sensitive subject to most of the world because most of the people in the world would have been targeted had hitler had his way. so yeah, one needs to treat the whole situation with gratuitous amounts of tact. this isn’t a controversial opinion whatsoever.
it’s unfortunately important to make sure that one is mocking the nazis in the most unambiguous way because, well, theyre nazis. they’re already dipshits to begin with, and they need to know that everyone thinks that. lest they confuse satire with celebration and start getting comfortable.
Background Pony #5BE2
@Coco
Its dark comedy. Almost everything joked about in that genre is a sensitive topic.
Its dark comedy. Almost everything joked about in that genre is a sensitive topic.
DragonRanger 
What about things like the Indiana Jones movies or the Wolfenstein games, where the Nazi regime is played completely straight, or even things like the new Star Wars trilogywith the First Order being Nazis in everything but name? How about movies like The Dictator where a man who is clearly meant to portray an analog of Hitler speaks about the evils of tyranny?
WhiskeyPanda 
@Background Pony #9312
>I am ANTI-CENSORSHIP. Change my mind.
“Nazis are bad. Fact.
There is no further discussion necessary.”
Thank you for the contribution, but I don’t think you changed anyone’s mind.
>I am ANTI-CENSORSHIP. Change my mind.
“Nazis are bad. Fact.
There is no further discussion necessary.”
Thank you for the contribution, but I don’t think you changed anyone’s mind.
Coco
@Background Pony #5BE2
you can have dark comedy without saying things that are sympathetic and agreeable to nazis. like i said, it’s not satire if it isn’t critical.
you can have dark comedy without saying things that are sympathetic and agreeable to nazis. like i said, it’s not satire if it isn’t critical.
Background Pony #5BE2
I wonder what people like coco would think about Battle Tendency. After all, Stroheim’s an ally character. Who am I kidding. He’d probably demand Araki and Jojo in general be blacklisted from entertainment for antisemitism. .
Background Pony #5BE2
@Coco
And I’m saying your definition of what counts as critical is way too narrow and shouldn’t be the standard of what defines acceptable satire.
And I’m saying your definition of what counts as critical is way too narrow and shouldn’t be the standard of what defines acceptable satire.
Coco
@DragonRanger
you clearly didn’t read the previous page of this very thread where i talked about that very movie.
your assumption that i (or people who would agree with me) think that all media portraying nazis should be removed from derpibooru, instead of all media that is uncritical of nazis, shows how little you have read, and how much you are arguing against a strawman in your head.
you clearly didn’t read the previous page of this very thread where i talked about that very movie.
your assumption that i (or people who would agree with me) think that all media portraying nazis should be removed from derpibooru, instead of all media that is uncritical of nazis, shows how little you have read, and how much you are arguing against a strawman in your head.
Coco
@Background Pony #5BE2
it’s very naive of you to assume that i haven’t watched battle tendency (it’s my favorite part, actually), or that i’m not a jojo fan at all (i very much am). you might be surprised to learn that jojo is very highly regarded among leftists and social justice types.
i accept the fact that battle tendency is a product of it’s time and that it wasn’t written recently. i think it was a mistake for araki to portray a nazi soldier in the positive way that he did. i still love the rest of the entire series that doesn’t portray a nazi sympathetically
it’s very naive of you to assume that i haven’t watched battle tendency (it’s my favorite part, actually), or that i’m not a jojo fan at all (i very much am). you might be surprised to learn that jojo is very highly regarded among leftists and social justice types.
i accept the fact that battle tendency is a product of it’s time and that it wasn’t written recently. i think it was a mistake for araki to portray a nazi soldier in the positive way that he did. i still love the rest of the entire series that doesn’t portray a nazi sympathetically
Spring32 
I don’t want want to jump into this discussion ship too much. I’m mostly anti-censorship but I have some issues on the matter. Let me copypaste my comment on the count Dankula video:
I agree on many but not every things. I’m pretty pro-socialist, I say this because it will make sense in what i’m going to say next, especially the second point. Free speech IS the the freedom for people to say things you may not like. If there is no plurality of ideas, there is no freedom. But
Wintermute
Since 1 already came up here @Skygunner (and I haven’t even gotten through the whole post yet), I’m gonna post this:
10 Stupid Arguments Against Free Speech
Timestamps:
4:44 1. Support is Not Agreement
8:30 2. Criticism is NOT Anti-Free Speech
13:31 3. You Just Want Freedom From Consequences
21:16 4. The BUT
21:33 5. Mr. Fascist, Please Save Me From The Fascists
22:39 6. Oh Irony
24:42 7. The Victim 180
26:42 8. You Have The Right To Remain Offended
27:31 9. The Empty Room Fallacy
29:50 10. Private Companies Can Do What They Wantthey use a logical fallacy called Slippery Slope, in order to make it about more than just nazis.There’s also the fallacy fallacy.
I don’t want want to jump into this discussion ship too much. I’m mostly anti-censorship but I have some issues on the matter. Let me copypaste my comment on the count Dankula video:
I agree on many but not every things. I’m pretty pro-socialist, I say this because it will make sense in what i’m going to say next, especially the second point. Free speech IS the the freedom for people to say things you may not like. If there is no plurality of ideas, there is no freedom. But
- criticizing the quality of the person instead the idea of the person (example: Saying that you are bad because you are trans, not because you are saying a bad thing) is NOT plurality of ideas, is NOT criticism. It’s just plain and simple going ad hominem and using the “free speech” as an excuse to avoid your responsibility of “your freedom ends when someone else freedom starts”, the social pact, which if done en masse is just mob mentality. Imposing your idea over the well being of other people IS authoritarianism. You always have responsibility to other people in all of your actions, and “free speech extremism” is often a way to avoid this responsibility.
- Your point about defending the freedom of the corporation to do whatever they want, is 50% ok, you avoided to talk about the actual issue. It’s not per se “the freedom of the corporation do whatever they want with their political ideas”, it’s more the idea of “I don’t want certain ideas in my home”. For instance, I invite a commie or a nazi at my house and I say to them “avoid politics”, but in the name of free speech they don’t listen to my request. It’s not authoritarian to say “i don’t want nazi or communist to spit their ideology in my house”, to use the excuse of their “free speech is sacred” is basically an imposition on me in what is the privacy of my house, a form of authoritarianism nonetheless.
TL;DR “free speech extremism” is authoritarian if it doesn’t respect the principle “your freedom ends when someone else freedom starts”.
Background Pony #5BE2
@Coco
The manga’s old but it was just animated 8 or so years ago. Dp could have just not animated it and people could have boycotted its airing. That’s a product of this time and yet, none of that happened.
Plus, of course, the games that include stroheim as a playable character certanly aren’t all that old.
The manga’s old but it was just animated 8 or so years ago. Dp could have just not animated it and people could have boycotted its airing. That’s a product of this time and yet, none of that happened.
Plus, of course, the games that include stroheim as a playable character certanly aren’t all that old.
Coco
@Background Pony #5BE2
people could have, but they didn’t because we’re not completely unreasonable. like i said, we understand that it’s a product of it’s time. we also know that removing his character would not only go against DP’s intention of faithfully recreating the manga, but also introduce hella plot holes that they would have to fill, and frankly i dont trust DP or current day araki to do that properly.
this convo is hella off topic lolz
people could have, but they didn’t because we’re not completely unreasonable. like i said, we understand that it’s a product of it’s time. we also know that removing his character would not only go against DP’s intention of faithfully recreating the manga, but also introduce hella plot holes that they would have to fill, and frankly i dont trust DP or current day araki to do that properly.
this convo is hella off topic lolz
Background Pony #9312
@WhiskeyPanda
It’s a binary choice. If you don’t think Nazis are bad and should not have a platform, then you’re just as bad as those who espouse that vile ideology.
Do not give Nazis an inch. Do not give them a nanometer. Because before you know it they’ll be goosestepping the whole mile. Nip that shit in the bud before they even get a chance to step foot inside.
It’s a binary choice. If you don’t think Nazis are bad and should not have a platform, then you’re just as bad as those who espouse that vile ideology.
Do not give Nazis an inch. Do not give them a nanometer. Because before you know it they’ll be goosestepping the whole mile. Nip that shit in the bud before they even get a chance to step foot inside.
Spring32
Wintermute
@Background Pony #9312
Letting them talk and exposing their faulty ideology with facts and logic everytime they have to say something can be helpful to stop their run down this mile.
But if you force them to shut up they can play the victim card, and when they start to act like martyr they may even find allies among those who are not actual nazis. This will empower them. It’s not that you can completely remove every platform for them. They will always find a place to spit their stupidity.
So if you force them out of here you just give them more power.
If nothing would have happened, I assure you, the whole nazi thing would have completly died in no time.
Letting them talk and exposing their faulty ideology with facts and logic everytime they have to say something can be helpful to stop their run down this mile.
But if you force them to shut up they can play the victim card, and when they start to act like martyr they may even find allies among those who are not actual nazis. This will empower them. It’s not that you can completely remove every platform for them. They will always find a place to spit their stupidity.
So if you force them out of here you just give them more power.
If nothing would have happened, I assure you, the whole nazi thing would have completly died in no time.
Infinite Winter
Go to Ponybooru
@Background Pony #9312
This site has “given them an inch”. It happened 6 years ago. I don’t see that this site has turned into a Reich
This site has “given them an inch”. It happened 6 years ago. I don’t see that this site has turned into a Reich
Coco
this is false because it ignores the ways that normalization has already happened in our society. normalization is not a concept restricted to only bad things. good things (or neutral things for that matter) can be normalized too. women wearing pants has been normalized, adults watching cartoons has been normalized, eating processed food has been normalized.
any time something is done that the rest of society knows about, it is one step closer to normalization. our job as a society is to decide what should and shouldn’t be normalized, and take steps to accomplish that. nazi sympathy should not be normalized, and we should take steps to accomplish that.
Let me say few words about this issue:
The idea of normalization is false, and it was proven time and time again. You can not normalize something just by shoving it in someones face. At least to adult individuals. It is the same “Video games cause violence” over and over again.
this is false because it ignores the ways that normalization has already happened in our society. normalization is not a concept restricted to only bad things. good things (or neutral things for that matter) can be normalized too. women wearing pants has been normalized, adults watching cartoons has been normalized, eating processed food has been normalized.
any time something is done that the rest of society knows about, it is one step closer to normalization. our job as a society is to decide what should and shouldn’t be normalized, and take steps to accomplish that. nazi sympathy should not be normalized, and we should take steps to accomplish that.
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