Season 4 episode discussion (Stream & episode links in first post)

@Thanotos Omega  
(Actually, Applejack seems to be the best ground floor team member. She’s stalwart and has few hesitations to do what needs to be done. She’s not the head, but she’s one of the best pillars of the team.)
 
On the contrary. Shouldering the most blame and focusing her aggressive nature into being a charismatic leader are actually EXCELLENT signs of a leader. That’s why all the pegasi in Ponyville and even those officially saluting her at the academy see her as a leader, one worthy to follow. That’s why they were all listening to her when AJ needed to be found. That’s why RD constantly points out the practical flaws in other plans since she doesn’t WANT to boss around her friends, but neither does she want them falling for the obvious mistakes. Far better in the long run then getting only holier-then-thou lectures with no passion all the time. Most of RD’s plans are genre-savvy and practical. Practical enough so that if there’s a flaw in the plan, she’ll find out immediately, instead of self-sabotage herself for a long time.
 
What do you think Sea Breeze was trying to tell Fluttershy? The only reason Sea Breeze himself couldn’t move the other Breezies until the end when he WAS acting more leader-esque like Dash was 1) The normal breezies WERE completely un-independent and short-sighted creatures, 2) He had Dash’s anger amped up to 11, and 3) Long years living with dumber breezies made him use the carrot and stick routine without the carrot. Fluttershy managed to get them to leave by using the Carrot AND the Stick in the end, and Sea Breeze gave them the carrot when the actually started trying ONCE.

@Background Pony  
I really like these points and I hope they sometime get explored the way you’ve described them here in the show, especially since there is potential for these things being even illustrated in short moments during said adventure setting, but because there is more emphasis on comedy, it doesn’t look as though it could be possible, at least not from what I’ve seen in this season’s opener.  
What you explained there about Dash made sense because it fit perfectly with her character establishments, but with Twilight in the season opener giving order to some random guards? I can see it shows a sense of authority, but even then.. it’s no different than the time she was in charge of a small expedition in Dragonshy, nor does it really say much about her role as a potential leader, because, that royal guards order scene went absolutely nowhere either. In fact, the story forgot a royal guard order even existed, because no one knows what they found out, they never reported anything, so, I don’t quite understand what the purpose of it was, other than to show something we already knew.
 
I could be wrong, but who knows.. I would be happy to be wrong about this, personally, for the future of the show. I don’t want the show to go 100% mature either, but I would like for at least some very short moments that can give an impression to viewers similar to what you described here.

@Background Pony
 
I meant she makes more and often bigger mistakes then any one except perhaps Twilight’s at the end of season 3 which was way out of her hooves,
 
Rarity and AJ are the best substitute leaders in that order, Rarity can get all 5 to work together and AJ can get everyone except Dash on board, Pinkie is the only one who would remain under Dash’s command, Rarity would Get mad about Dash pushing Shy to hard and they would leave Dash also wouldn’t be able to lead AJ since she has shown to be a control freak when given authority, And wouldn’t respond to AJ’s attempts at diplomacy,
 
Shy could at least keep Pinkie and Rarity maybe AJ though she would get flustered with Shy’s passiveness,
 
Pinkie could also keep the team together but it wouldn’t be very effective,
 
In Twi’s absence rarity leading with AJ as second in command is the best option, As it is it’s Twi with AJ as second in command, which is the best possible arrangement,

@SeraphimDawn  
We can use Sombra for the job. But the problem is that Sombra would turn them into Khornate Berzerkers.

@Thanotos Omega  
(Reads it)That’ a lot of baseless statements and bias in order to make Dash look like the worst leader without the slightest bit of examples or counterarguments.
 
Plus she ‘makes the most mistakes’ and she ‘makes bigger mistakes then others’? What do those statements mean without anything to back it up, not the show, not the comics, no nothing? She has the guiltiest conscience since she actually lives up to her mistakes and moments of imperfect-sensitivity more then anyone else. TvTropes even qualifies her for the trope ‘Can’t get away with Nothin’’, while Twilight for example has made some of the hugest regualar and morality mistakes(like prioritizing homework over lives in the Sombra incident) and almost never gotten any backlash because she’s Celestia student, qualifying her especially in S4 for the trope Karma Houdini.
 
…were talking about ACTUAL leadership skills within the show, not stuff the show lets happen but conveniently ignores. We have to go with what’s shown in the show, and Dash has shown to be a charismatic and natural leader in many episodes; ignoring those episodes to fit your headcanon is hardly mature.
 
In fact the most recent official IDW comic is a huge Celestia character development book. It goes into extreme detail on the strengths and most significantly the weaknesses of Celestia’s wisdom during the show and how Twilight was raised on a pedastal while Celestia ignored the reality happening to her other skilled friends and other civilian ponies, and at the end of the comic she starts to feel the idea that ‘roles are predestinily assigned’, like Twilight being ‘the leader’, despite having the worst mental health of the 6, is wrong. She learns roles can be and should be reversed if the situation calls for it.

Applejack is a bad choice for a leader. So far, she always makes terrible decisions (bucking the entire orchard by herself, leaving Ponyville permanently, telling Twilight to go back to Ponyville instead of continue searching for the tree, overprotecting Apple Bloom). Being to get everyone to do things doesn’t matter if she would just lead them to their doom. Though it may seems to be Dash, the one who makes the most mistakes so far is undoubtedly AJ.
 
Fluttershy is the absolute worst option for a leader. The only decision she will ever make is to give up.
 
Pinkie Pie is a bad leader for obvious reasons.
 
For Rarity, I think her obsession of aesthetic beauty and small details may make her fail to see the big picture, or set her priorities right. So far, she doesn’t strike me as the type that would be willing to take charge of others.
 
Twilight… I honestly don’t know. She certainly has the best brain of the group, but she doesn’t have charm. She is indecisive a lot of times, and prone to panic. She can create good plans, but I have to question her ability to execute them.
 
Rainbow Dash is probably the only one out of the mane 6 to have a leader’s charisma, and can make others respect her and not just love her. She’s also decisive, and usually can make a good call in a nick of time as BP mentioned. Her problem is that she is often too fast to be careful with what she does, but so far, those flaws in her plans don’t really have potentially serious consequences. She can make a fine leader if she slow down and think a bit more.
 
I think the most effective leadership would be Dash with Twilight as her advisor.

@Grieffon  
The real issue with Rainbow is she is too competitive, during Hurricane Fluttershy she was more concerned with beating a record than actually just doing the job she was supposed to do.  
Also in Dragonshy, she was perfectly fine just leaving Fluttershy behind, in fact she was the most vocal about it.
 
Twilight’s lack of charisma comes from her lack of confidence in herself, which is ironic when she actually did have that at the start of the series…

@Grieffon
 
But Twilight has to be the leader because she gets the strongest digivolution.

@FlutterLove  
But the moment she heard that she doesn’t have enough wingpower to break the record, instead of trying to find a way to do that, she just dropped the idea and focused on providing water for Cloudsdale.
 
As for Dragonshy, she does have a point. Bringing a pony who was afraid of her shadow to handle a dragon didn’t sound good. Plus, it’s the beginning of the series, she was more stupid back then. All of them were.
 
@Zennistrad  
Yeah, we know she will be the leader because she’s the one picked as the main character in the beginning. But we are talking about a more sensible, realistic scenario.

@Grieffon
 

@Zennistrad  
Yeah, I know it was a joke because of the “digivolution”. However, it’s too true in a sad way to laugh…

@Bolan  

 
Situational empath? What do you mean by that?
 
I didn’t mind Spike’s absence, but it still seemed odd, given that Pinkie seems likely to actually try to include him, and that a scene took place in the library.
 
On the leadership conversation…
 
I think that Applejack is being underrated. She actually seems to have the most experience as a leader, and is well respected by everyone in town.
 
Sure, she’s made some bad calls, but so have all the other Manes.

@Grieffon  

 
Wait, you mean they got smart?

@Sjogre  
I’m not trying to underestimate AJ, she is quite capable of leadership, I just think that she’s not the best choice for leading ALL of them DIRECTLY. She doesn’t know how to utilize the skills of everyone on their team, and her forte isn’t solving complex problems.
 
AJ’s leadership skills ARE necessary for the team, but more upon laying the foundations of the base then forming the head, if you know what I mean. That’s the kind of leadership qualities she has that makes her so respected, her unyielding, stalwart personality. She has her moments of doubt and overstubborness, but overall her being brave and true to herself, that sticking-to-her-guns attitude, is why she’s the Element of Honesty and the perfect pillar to the team.
 
To go back to an earlier comment on the Royal Guard Captain, I think Applejack has the best fitting qualities to that very specific type of leadership position if you ask me.

@FlutterLove  
Wait, what in the world are you talking about?
 
In Hurricane Fluttershy, Dash wanted to see greatness out of her friends, the Pegasi she was leading, cause she believed in them and it was their duty this year. Competitiveness and wanting to impress the Wonderbolts was CERTAINLY part of it initially…
 
.. but the kicker is that when everyone came down with the flu, she threw all the competition stuff to the side as if it was nothing and did her best to not only get the job done right, but also help one of her best friends achieve inner strength. If the competitiveness was her biggest motivation to begin with, she wouldn’t have bounced back leading the team to their duty so easily.
 
That’s character development. She’s had some of the most positive and dramatic character development within the series, and that’s saying something considering they all have had a lot of character development.

@CronoM  
Not really. She’s grown closer with her friends and become less obsessed with her dream as it gets closer.
 
It’s the same as Rarity’s, except Rarity’s happened sooner.

@Whatevs  
I don’t understand what you mean by that as it doesn’t match anything in the context of the show.
 
For one thing, Twilight, Rarity, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie and especially AJ are already living their a small part of their dream job/goals they are proud of, but simply want to improve upon that to more of an idealic dream goal. RD on the other hand does not have a job she is truly proud of, just a weather pony, but her dream job IS her goal. She’s reaching for the stars to become a wonderbolt. In other words, all of them are at least happy where they are, but RD isn’t happy with where she is. Her goal for her dream is one of her main aspects.
 
For another thing, RD is willing to give up on that goal entirely, permenantly, if it meant not endangering others. I’m not belittling the dream goals the other girls have, but RD is the most dicontent with where she is now and the most devoted to a single, solitary dream goal…and yet she was willing to give it up for her morals. Few of them could possibly do that. That’s enormous character development.

@CronoM  
She certainly has the self-sacrificing part of loyalty down pat.

@CronoM  
I guess you missed S&E where Rarity also has been willing to sacrifice her dream to right wrongs, the same happened in Manehattan.  
It also happened in Suited to an extent, she was willing to risk looking bad for her friends.  
But it still hurt her when it happened so it did not take.
 
And, to take a shot at Dash, she had to relearn her development from WA in RF.
 
And I did not even get into Hidden Depths development for Rarity, which she most certainly trounces all others on.

@Whatevs  
Mind sharing the hidden depths of Rarity?

@Grieffon  
When I’m at my pc I shall (on phone)

@Grieffon  
Why’d you have to get him started?

@PonyPon  
Why? Am I forbidden from talking about all the ways I feel Rarity is superior as a character?  
I know in this fandom we are supposed to ignore these things about Rarity and hurl shit at her so her fans are too busy playing defense to fight back but I’m breaking convention

@Whatevs  
No you’re not, you’re overreacting to people questioning your favorite character to the point of calling her superior. Just because she’s easily put into hysterics doesn’t mean you have to be almost as nuts. Surely, you think her dignified enough not to require such defending? I only half like her and I certainly do.

@PonyPon  
I overreacted in the last post yes.  
But not in any post where you said “don’t get him started.”
 
And I should remind you, I am from /mlp/. Fighting and arguing is the only reason she is respected over there last I checked.  
Being polite has not made the people in the fandom who underestimate her like her.