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Show’s over, we’re done.
I stated right off the bat this conversation is already long enough. I already told the previous person I wasn’t going to reply to them anymore, since we both agreed to disagree and stop replying. And I thought that was the end of that conversation.
Now we’re back to it again. So let me finish it this way. I’m not going down each reply of yours and reply in return. We both have valid points. But we’re not going to agree. We have different opinions. I’m done with this conversation.
Whether we like the implications or not, that’s how it works in their world. A pony with a tap-dancing cutiemark will never be as good at singing as a pony with a singing cutiemark. The only possible exception to this is a pony who can live for hundreds/thousands of years, and has all the time in the world to get better at other things.
You assume her overall power has to be on the level of her sun-moving ability, but that has never been shown or even implied. What has been shown and implied several times however, is that its not the case. And that while she (and her sister) are obviously more powerful than any unicorn, aside from their specific sun/moon manipulation they have very clear limits when using their magic for everything else. Limits that are very clearly not on the same level as their ability to move the sun/moon.
You try to convince yourself that Celestia failing at something is a plothole, but a plothole has to contradict a stated/proven fact. When has it been a fact that she can actually fight/deal with tremendous threats by her own power? When? On the other hand, we’ve seen her limits lie lower than that many times. I honestly can’t believe there could still be people who, after having seen the series until this point, still believe Celestia can actually move anything as big as the sun with her magic.
@Vinyl Fluff
Again, if the series show something working a certain way once and again, then trying to pass it off as a plothole once it works that same way for the 100th time, makes 0 sense at all.
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
And this is consistent with her fight against the Tatlwurm, where her and Cadance’s beams were also just annoying it and pushing it back. Since that thing was obviously trying to eat them, it was a life/death battle. Where was the magical restraining/freezing/blasting you’re so sure she can use on creatures bigger than ponies?
Edited because: typo
I guess concentration would be necessary for those sorts of spells.
She could multi-teleport when she was still a unicorn. She even did it in Dragon Quest, the other episode set in the dragonlands!
heh, I know, it was a joke
No. we don’t have tags specifically for that. “drama in the coments” is for images with particularly heated and hostile discussions on the comments.
heh, that’s just a tag added by default when pics have too many comments X3
Edited
The funny thing is, the image earned the “drama in the comments” tag hours before our debate. It was a different drama that did it.
‘Cuz I’m pretty sure there’s some fairly well established precedent here.
Yeah, this conversation has gone on for long enough, and the people involved are never going to fully accept what the others have said, so I’m not going to reply to every single thing you’ve said. But I’m going to reply to a few points.
You assume that each character has one specific spell they know directly related to their cutie mark. We’ve got in-show proof that they don’t. We’ve got mentions of “unicorn levels” in Magic Duel, and the spells required of the different levels. Yes, they have spells specifically-related to their cutie marks, but you’re making it out that they only have a sole spell. You’re also dismissing Celestia’s power by hand-waving it away with “It’s her cutie mark ability, it’s nothing special.”
As for dragon resistance, yes they could spring tomorrow that dragons are magic-resistant. But until they do, we can’t assume it. Just because they could write it into the show does not mean you assume it now.
I’m not saying Twilight is a god-like being who can solve every single problem with magic. That would be utterly boring, and unoriginal. What I’m saying is that given what we’ve been presented with her, and given no evidence to the contrary, she should be able to, somehow, whether it be by injury or simply physically holding him in one area, handle Garble. And yes, plot limitations do dictate a lot. IIRC one of the staff from DHX was talking about having to make things interesting in a world where beings could solve problems with magic.
Finally, the bugbear. I’m getting a little tired of this being used as an example, because the entire episode was meant in humor, and it was designed for the mane 6 to not be the focus of the episode. So whatever threat kept them busy obviously had to be tough. And the monster was a play on the D&D monster, a bugbear. Only they did it literally, a bear with bug (bee) parts.
@Vinyl Fluff
Its the same reason why even though Shining Armor isn’t an Alicorn nor as all-round powerful as the princesses, it was still established no one can create barriers as powerful as his. Because that’s his Cutiemark spell: Protection/Barriers. And as the former Captain of the most important city in Equestria, he likely cultivated this gift to the point where it (and it alone) surpassed even the ability of an Alicorn to do the same. Does that mean everything else he can do is on that level? Not at all.
@Vinyl Fluff
Chrysalis defeated her because once she absorbed SA’s love, her power matched and slightly surpassed Celestia’s. As simple as that. When you let go of the mistaken idea that she’s supposed to be much stronger than that in combat (which has 0 basis) then it makes perfect sense.
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
There’s no plothole until something directly constadicts an established fact. Remind me again, when exactly has it been established pony magic works against all creaturs the same? Or that dragons, for example, aren’t resistsant to magic like other creatures have shown to be? I mean, remember the Bugbear? That thing was barely annoyed by Twilight’s beams, so then why would it be so hard to accept that maybe she really can’t just blast all her problems away, and it isn’t plot that restricts her?
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
Don’t get me wrong, since Twi’s Cutiemark talent is magic, then I believe its possible for her to be able to use all spells better than others, but why are you assuming “in theory” she should already be able to replicate what SA does? According to canon, not even the sisters can replicate SA’s shield, so why should Twilight already be able to?
@Vinyl Fluff
@Vinyl Fluff
I honestly don’t see that happening. Especially not while in full disguise, they couldn’t exactly run around the labyrinth part of it as ponies without getting caught.
I forget, does Twilight have GPS spell for Spike? I mean, its a practical thing to have and would help with the teleportaition (hopefully not as invasive as the spell Celestia had for Twilight in MMC)
What it basically boiled down to was that ‘increased aura’, as it were, from the end of Boast Busters. Remember how Twilight strained herself and the purple aura around her horn increased in size considerably? That never happened again. She was able to use telekinesis on a far larger scale then compared to what we see in later episodes. It would be understandable if it happened only seldomly, but considering all the times large scale magic was needed from then and now, we don’t see it at all afterwords.
Back to your main point, @Kibate, that sort of scaled up magic seemed to be only possible with a large degree of time and concentration. She definitely didn’t fight the Ursa Minor face to face.
And honestly, I think that scale of magic from Twilight was sort of retconned just so every situation with a large scale problem in terms of size couldn’t be solved with just ‘Twilight trying harder with her telekinesis.’ Would of gotten old very fast.
I guess the difference between ‘plot determined limitation’ and ‘a retconned power’ is that a ‘plot determined limitation’ will have the character’s power fluctuate to suit the theme episode to episode, while ‘a retconned power’ will be a degree of power we see in one early episode but never again. There’s no doubt Twilight’s improved, and that she could of definitely fought off a few dragons garble’s size(if it was the smart thing to do), but her power definitely improved from a very different set point then Boast Busters.
I still prefer the explanation that the ponies are just more capable at performing the dragon’s tasks than the dragons themselves, especially considering that the dragons participating are still considered adolescent dragons and not adults.
That’s the thing, the propaganda that is the show only portrays other races as acting like selfish jerks so the nice and good ponies can come in and “teach” them to not be selfish jerks.
Edited
Yeah, with the Ursa Minor, she physically picked him up. So such a feat should be nothing for something much smaller like Garble. That’s just part of it.
But yes, this discussion has gone on a lot. I don’t really think there’s too much to discuss here with it anymore, either.