Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism
Background Pony #00E5
I’m in a weird feeling about all this.
I’m not a fan of censorship, for sure. But I really hate all the hate images, which I already had set to ignore. So these rule changes don’t affect me at all.
But doing nothing with images that are purposefully designed to be inciteful and inflammatory isn’t smart, either.
I’m not a fan of censorship, for sure. But I really hate all the hate images, which I already had set to ignore. So these rule changes don’t affect me at all.
But doing nothing with images that are purposefully designed to be inciteful and inflammatory isn’t smart, either.
Northern 
I refuse to bend
@Background Pony #00E5
That depends. As you said, those who didn’t want to engage with hateful content didn’t even have to acknowledge its existence. The only change here is a net-negative to expression, therefore, that doesn’t assist anyone in any way to avoid this content.
That depends. As you said, those who didn’t want to engage with hateful content didn’t even have to acknowledge its existence. The only change here is a net-negative to expression, therefore, that doesn’t assist anyone in any way to avoid this content.
doloresbridge 
Peace to all
Deletion reason: Rule #6: This thread is not a general "challenge moderation decisions" thread
doloresbridge
I think there is a fair bit who do and also a fair bit that just want to grill
Like, @Princess Luna how do you feel of these rules at least as written. If you don’t feel sharing comfortable sharing it in the forum, you can PM me if you wish. I love hearing different perspectives especially those on the fence; a group of people who I feel didn’t get to speak up as much and were probably a bit more numerous than the forums’ discourse would suggest.
@liquidsodanium
LOL, well to be fair though, it’s been a pretty busy few days and I couldn’t blame someone taking a couple of days off. If they are AWOL for longer though then yeah, Houston we have a problem.
Peace to all
I’m in a weird feeling about all this.
I think there is a fair bit who do and also a fair bit that just want to grill
But doing nothing with images that are purposefully designed to be inciteful and inflammatory isn’t smart, either.
Like, @Princess Luna how do you feel of these rules at least as written. If you don’t feel sharing comfortable sharing it in the forum, you can PM me if you wish. I love hearing different perspectives especially those on the fence; a group of people who I feel didn’t get to speak up as much and were probably a bit more numerous than the forums’ discourse would suggest.
@liquidsodanium
LOL, well to be fair though, it’s been a pretty busy few days and I couldn’t blame someone taking a couple of days off. If they are AWOL for longer though then yeah, Houston we have a problem.
evan555alpha 
PSA: R0 was changed!
@PaintEdits
The staff seem to have a policy of “delete now, ask questions later” for things that they disagree with. For particularly egregious things (and obviously illegal things, duh) I can understand, but a lot of the recent deletions that were summarily un-deleted really had no right to be deleted at all.
@liquidsodanium
Depends on which one you mean. Princess Luna is around, but ~Princess Celestia~ seems to have disappeared.
The staff seem to have a policy of “delete now, ask questions later” for things that they disagree with. For particularly egregious things (and obviously illegal things, duh) I can understand, but a lot of the recent deletions that were summarily un-deleted really had no right to be deleted at all.
@liquidsodanium
Depends on which one you mean. Princess Luna is around, but ~Princess Celestia~ seems to have disappeared.
Princess Luna 
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@William Flutter
This thread is not a general “Hey mods you are biased!” or “Hey mods you deleted my thread, why?” thread (we have a Discord and IRC channel for that second one), this is about an update to Rule 0 in relation primarily to images, and I will have to start handing out bans to people who can’t accept that.
As to the rule application, we’re slowing down a bit (not really deleting anything for just a bit) while we do some reviewing of images in bulk form focusing on the lower-effort older stuff.
This thread is not a general “Hey mods you are biased!” or “Hey mods you deleted my thread, why?” thread (we have a Discord and IRC channel for that second one), this is about an update to Rule 0 in relation primarily to images, and I will have to start handing out bans to people who can’t accept that.
As to the rule application, we’re slowing down a bit (not really deleting anything for just a bit) while we do some reviewing of images in bulk form focusing on the lower-effort older stuff.
Northern
I refuse to bend
@Princess Luna
As a user who has the ear of the broader community and the mouth of that community whispering in my own ear, I caution you, strongly… Don’t mass delete images. You will not make any friends doing this.
As a user who has the ear of the broader community and the mouth of that community whispering in my own ear, I caution you, strongly… Don’t mass delete images. You will not make any friends doing this.
evan555alpha
PSA: R0 was changed!
@Princess Luna
We can’t make our own threads out of fear of thread lock/deletion/getting banned.
We can’t say anything in Discord since we’d be muted/banned.
We probably can’t do it in IRC either since we’d be banned there, too.
Where the fuck do you want us to do it, then?
@Northern
This, too. You and I both know that mass-deletion would be a move equal to going Full Retard, Luna. You should know about never going Full Retard.
I’d also advise against “reviewing” in bulk, too. That’s pretty brain-dead.
We can’t make our own threads out of fear of thread lock/deletion/getting banned.
We can’t say anything in Discord since we’d be muted/banned.
We probably can’t do it in IRC either since we’d be banned there, too.
Where the fuck do you want us to do it, then?
@Northern
This, too. You and I both know that mass-deletion would be a move equal to going Full Retard, Luna. You should know about never going Full Retard.
I’d also advise against “reviewing” in bulk, too. That’s pretty brain-dead.
Background Pony #940B
Deletion reason: Rule #6: Off-topic
Background Pony #AD5E
Deletion reason: Rule #6: Off-topic
CHurricane 
I am not an expert on this topic but i did find on Wikipedia that soviets used gas wagons which are a form of gas chamber on wheels but the scale at which these trucks were used is unknown.(Communist countries are not really happy about sharing details of their war crimes) I don’t know anything about use of “traditional” gas chambers by communist countries but as i said before i am not an expert on the subject.
What does “something contradictory to it being a gas chamber” means? Does slapping sign with text: “fake gas chamber”(like on picture of “Anthro Aryanne about to shoot a human male with hammer & sickle armband…”) or “ Not a gas chamber” near it be enough? Or does it need to be “more” contradictory like stating that it is some other kind of room like “cleaning closet”, “kitchen” or “showers”?
I also see that you did not address part of my post about substituting swastika with fictional symbols and eventual future appropriation of some of the symbols by bad actors so i will quote that part of the post here:
I thought that insulting or criticizing someone on basis of their opinions(wanting “nazi” content gone) is an acceptable thing to do( if it is not a low quality edit or something) So does pictures being “insulting” towards groups of people based on their ideology that are not in the “form” of meme are now considered for potential deletion?
If we are talking about that dabbing picture then you cant assume that they are “Celebrating about the death of someone executed for their race”. Aryanne and pinkie can indeed be considered as celebrating(by dabbing unironically) death of someone but nothing in this picture implies that they are celebrating it because of the race of the victim. Assuming that they are celebrating because of racial reasons is just your subjective interpretation we shoud also remember that it is not any “random” gryphon being gassed by aryanne but it is Gilda being gassed by aryanne and Pinkie pie together. Gilda beside being a gryphon was also not nice to pinkie in earlier seasons so there is more objective argument that she is being gassed in that picture because of her behavior and not her race.
@Princess Luna
I would like to ask about the process of “reviewing of images in bulk”.
First of all: Are all(or almost all like 80%) pictures that are being reviewed Aryanne/nazi related or are your method of choosing “problematic” pictures less “one-sided”?
Next question: Derpy Whooves in this post said that “…votes are happening…” so I assume(correct me if I am wrong) that staff members are voting on which pictures to delete and which to leave. If I remember correctly in the past there were big problems with voting like “staff members not looking at pictures close enough before voting” for example. So if voting is happening then:
Does the percentage of the votes required for picture deletion is high(like for example 70%) or is it a simple majority(51%) like in past votes?
Is there a requirement for minimal number of staff members to take part in the vote for it to be valid?(For example 80% of staff members must vote)
If you are “reviewing images in bulk” then:
What (if any) procedures have you implemented to make sure that Staff members did analyzed Pictures “enough” before voting?
What (if any) procedures have you implemented to eliminate (or at least limit) the effect of staff members political(or personal against some artists) bias on vote result?
Also could you provide reason why you need to revive “older stuff” in bulk instead of going slowly picture by picture(or few at a time)? As far as I know you are not under any time limit to review things so in my opinion you should take your time before acting in such delicate manner(especially in regards to older pictures).
I can agree with the first part but the second part is on topic within this thread because this thread is about “Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity…” so if a thread was deleted because of rule 0 then discussing it in this thread is on topic. If i remember correctly(i read part of it before it was deleted but i don’t remember details of it) this post by doloresbridge was about deletion of his/her thread because of rule 0 so i think that answer why that thread was deleted is an acceptable thing to demand in context of discussion in this thread.
@Background Pony #AF1C
I would also like to know when (if at all) the mentioned image will get restored.
Devil's Advocate
to my knowledge, communists have never used gas chambers
I am not an expert on this topic but i did find on Wikipedia that soviets used gas wagons which are a form of gas chamber on wheels but the scale at which these trucks were used is unknown.(Communist countries are not really happy about sharing details of their war crimes) I don’t know anything about use of “traditional” gas chambers by communist countries but as i said before i am not an expert on the subject.
For recognizing gas chambers, it’d be anything that appears to be an airtight chamber that’s being used for executions, unless there’s something contradictory to it being a gas chamber.
What does “something contradictory to it being a gas chamber” means? Does slapping sign with text: “fake gas chamber”(like on picture of “Anthro Aryanne about to shoot a human male with hammer & sickle armband…”) or “ Not a gas chamber” near it be enough? Or does it need to be “more” contradictory like stating that it is some other kind of room like “cleaning closet”, “kitchen” or “showers”?
I also see that you did not address part of my post about substituting swastika with fictional symbols and eventual future appropriation of some of the symbols by bad actors so i will quote that part of the post here:
And if we are already in symbolism does change of ideological meaning require usage of active used real life symbolism of other ideologies? What i mean by this is that sometimes people use other symbols to replace nazi ones like smiling face or in mlp case black version of celestia cutie mark so for example if we have picture of aryanne with nazi styled armband(no uniform only armband) and we changed swastika in that armband to smiling face or celestia cutie mark would that make aryanne “not nazi” or do we have to change it to more obvious real life symbols like hammer and sicle? What about changing the swastika to symbol of fictional ideologies/organizations that exist in mass culture( books/movies) for example symbol of rebels in star wars? Does less common fictional examples count? For example lets say someone writes mlp fanfic an in it the communist will be useing three-armed swastica as their symbol would changeing regular swastica to the three-armed one then imply change of ideological meaning? And what if there is no prior fictional background of used symbols(author of the picture thinks of it by himself) for example if autor of picture used some symbol (first presence of this symbot ever) to substitute swastica on armband and then said in description of that picture that this new symbol is a symbol of for example crystal empire comunist party would then that symbol be accepted as good enough replacement that change ideological implication of the picture?And last thing about symbols: will symbol meaning change in the future affect older art? What i mean by this is that some symbols that were acceptable in the past now become controversial and their perceptive meaning changed with time (like “ok” hand symbol being now considered by some symbol of white power) so lets say we have dabbing aryanne pic and we change aryanne to be twilight sprkle and remove hat with swastica and we remove swastica from armband(we still have gryphon being gassed in gas chamber but by removing “nazis” from picture the picture should be ok enough if i understand corectly) and then we wuold put some other symbol on armband like for example cupcake and posted it on site then in lets say 5 years some neo-nazi organisation will start useing cupcake as their symbol would then that changed pic be considered no longer acceptable(it would again imply nazis) and be deleted?
@Background Pony #71E3
That image can be argued to be insulting towards especially the side that wanted all Nazi content gone; it was restored because that argument was found to be rather weak given the form of it.
I thought that insulting or criticizing someone on basis of their opinions(wanting “nazi” content gone) is an acceptable thing to do( if it is not a low quality edit or something) So does pictures being “insulting” towards groups of people based on their ideology that are not in the “form” of meme are now considered for potential deletion?
Celebrating about the death of someone executed for their race seems pretty pro-racism to me, even if the form of celebration is often derided; do realize a lot of people dab nonironically.
If we are talking about that dabbing picture then you cant assume that they are “Celebrating about the death of someone executed for their race”. Aryanne and pinkie can indeed be considered as celebrating(by dabbing unironically) death of someone but nothing in this picture implies that they are celebrating it because of the race of the victim. Assuming that they are celebrating because of racial reasons is just your subjective interpretation we shoud also remember that it is not any “random” gryphon being gassed by aryanne but it is Gilda being gassed by aryanne and Pinkie pie together. Gilda beside being a gryphon was also not nice to pinkie in earlier seasons so there is more objective argument that she is being gassed in that picture because of her behavior and not her race.
@Princess Luna
As to the rule application, we’re slowing down a bit (not really deleting anything for just a bit) while we do some reviewing of images in bulk form focusing on the lower-effort older stuff.
I would like to ask about the process of “reviewing of images in bulk”.
First of all: Are all(or almost all like 80%) pictures that are being reviewed Aryanne/nazi related or are your method of choosing “problematic” pictures less “one-sided”?
Next question: Derpy Whooves in this post said that “…votes are happening…” so I assume(correct me if I am wrong) that staff members are voting on which pictures to delete and which to leave. If I remember correctly in the past there were big problems with voting like “staff members not looking at pictures close enough before voting” for example. So if voting is happening then:
Does the percentage of the votes required for picture deletion is high(like for example 70%) or is it a simple majority(51%) like in past votes?
Is there a requirement for minimal number of staff members to take part in the vote for it to be valid?(For example 80% of staff members must vote)
If you are “reviewing images in bulk” then:
What (if any) procedures have you implemented to make sure that Staff members did analyzed Pictures “enough” before voting?
What (if any) procedures have you implemented to eliminate (or at least limit) the effect of staff members political(or personal against some artists) bias on vote result?
Also could you provide reason why you need to revive “older stuff” in bulk instead of going slowly picture by picture(or few at a time)? As far as I know you are not under any time limit to review things so in my opinion you should take your time before acting in such delicate manner(especially in regards to older pictures).
This thread is not a general “Hey mods you are biased!” or “Hey mods you deleted my thread, why?” thread
I can agree with the first part but the second part is on topic within this thread because this thread is about “Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity…” so if a thread was deleted because of rule 0 then discussing it in this thread is on topic. If i remember correctly(i read part of it before it was deleted but i don’t remember details of it) this post by doloresbridge was about deletion of his/her thread because of rule 0 so i think that answer why that thread was deleted is an acceptable thing to demand in context of discussion in this thread.
@Background Pony #AF1C
When is >>2385817 (deleted) getting restored?
I would also like to know when (if at all) the mentioned image will get restored.
Princess Luna
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@CHurricane
I don’t think slapping on “fake gas chamber” has any bearing on how it’s interpreted, as that’d be an obvious lie if it otherwise looks like one.
As for symbols, if it’s still using something resembling the Nazi flag/armband, it’d still be considered to be Nazi, yes.
As for the deletion of the image that was restored and insulting others, Rule #0’s second bulletpoint says “Do not harass others”, and the form has nothing to do with it. If you think an image is harassing others, report it.
I don’t buy the idea that Pinkie and Aryanne are gassing Gilda over Pinkie’s personal issues with her; Pinkie didn’t even have an issue with Gilda at the end, that was RD.
As for voting, 5 staff is the absolute minimum for a valid vote, but that comes with a high threshold (3/4th majority). The bulk review is intended to have a lower threshold and more staff required for a valid vote, but right now some things aren’t quite decided on due to uncertainty over how long it will take to get staff to vote on everything (we’re not all active every day).
As for the free helicopter rides image, it will probably be restored soon, it just needs some discussion among staff.
I don’t think slapping on “fake gas chamber” has any bearing on how it’s interpreted, as that’d be an obvious lie if it otherwise looks like one.
As for symbols, if it’s still using something resembling the Nazi flag/armband, it’d still be considered to be Nazi, yes.
As for the deletion of the image that was restored and insulting others, Rule #0’s second bulletpoint says “Do not harass others”, and the form has nothing to do with it. If you think an image is harassing others, report it.
I don’t buy the idea that Pinkie and Aryanne are gassing Gilda over Pinkie’s personal issues with her; Pinkie didn’t even have an issue with Gilda at the end, that was RD.
As for voting, 5 staff is the absolute minimum for a valid vote, but that comes with a high threshold (3/4th majority). The bulk review is intended to have a lower threshold and more staff required for a valid vote, but right now some things aren’t quite decided on due to uncertainty over how long it will take to get staff to vote on everything (we’re not all active every day).
As for the free helicopter rides image, it will probably be restored soon, it just needs some discussion among staff.
Background Pony #0CFF
@Princess Luna
You didn’t address the point of staff not looking at pictures correctly before voting.
The ACAB picture involving a severed head springs to mind, not to mention the number of hasty deletions that have happened and then been reinstated after talking about it (Or if you want to be cynical, after people made a fuss over it.)
Again, being cynical, this bulk method seems like a way for staff to avoid scrutiny, especially since it’s not apparent which images are under review and people can only start arguing your (the staffs) decisions after the fact.
You didn’t address the point of staff not looking at pictures correctly before voting.
The ACAB picture involving a severed head springs to mind, not to mention the number of hasty deletions that have happened and then been reinstated after talking about it (Or if you want to be cynical, after people made a fuss over it.)
Again, being cynical, this bulk method seems like a way for staff to avoid scrutiny, especially since it’s not apparent which images are under review and people can only start arguing your (the staffs) decisions after the fact.
Northern
There’s a huge issue here when taken into consideration with the fact that the same ‘obvious’ clause does not apply affirmatively towards the subject of racism being used for the purpose of comedic exaggeration or parody. If something can be declared to be obviously true based on context, then the same obvious truth that those who made the images in question are not promoting racism should be held to. In other words: If you’re allowing the labeling of subjects within pictures directly to mean nothing given context, then the whole basis for applying the rule to things that given the context of their creation are equally obviously meant to be jest (such as the dabbing Pinkie and Aryanne picture) is uneven, according to the application of the rules as clarified in this thread. That uneven application just adds to all previous examples stated.
I refuse to bend
@Background Pony #0CFF
I second all of these points. and I’ll add you one better:
I second all of these points. and I’ll add you one better:
I don’t think slapping on “fake gas chamber” has any bearing on how it’s interpreted, as that’d be an obvious lie if it otherwise looks like one.
There’s a huge issue here when taken into consideration with the fact that the same ‘obvious’ clause does not apply affirmatively towards the subject of racism being used for the purpose of comedic exaggeration or parody. If something can be declared to be obviously true based on context, then the same obvious truth that those who made the images in question are not promoting racism should be held to. In other words: If you’re allowing the labeling of subjects within pictures directly to mean nothing given context, then the whole basis for applying the rule to things that given the context of their creation are equally obviously meant to be jest (such as the dabbing Pinkie and Aryanne picture) is uneven, according to the application of the rules as clarified in this thread. That uneven application just adds to all previous examples stated.
Background Pony #AB73
@Background Pony #0CFF
You’re ignoring the fact that that defense only came up after pages of this very admin arguing in favor of the image’s message being a-okay. It’s not true.
And look at how complaints and questions are just being deleted or ignored. They’re just waiting for the last people holding onto hope that they’ll listen or apply these rules fairly to either be burned out or all banned.
You’re ignoring the fact that that defense only came up after pages of this very admin arguing in favor of the image’s message being a-okay. It’s not true.
And look at how complaints and questions are just being deleted or ignored. They’re just waiting for the last people holding onto hope that they’ll listen or apply these rules fairly to either be burned out or all banned.
Background Pony #5103
@Princess Luna
BULK vote? What the hell is this crap. AND it’s going to have a lower threshold? Amazing. Can’t wait for the shitstorm.
BULK vote? What the hell is this crap. AND it’s going to have a lower threshold? Amazing. Can’t wait for the shitstorm.
Background Pony #95A8
Deletion reason: Rule #6: Off-topic
Princess Luna
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #0CFF
Those polls only ran for a day, and votes could not be changed; this is different in both regards, which should alleviate the issue.
@Background Pony #5103
3/4th is a pretty high threshold, intended to prevent coming to a decision too early on things that aren’t well-agreed-upon; it would be a bit too high however for more thorough voting.
Those polls only ran for a day, and votes could not be changed; this is different in both regards, which should alleviate the issue.
@Background Pony #5103
3/4th is a pretty high threshold, intended to prevent coming to a decision too early on things that aren’t well-agreed-upon; it would be a bit too high however for more thorough voting.
Background Pony #AB73
@Princess Luna
Do you just intend to ignore the other issues people have because you have no response that is reasonable? I personally have two posts awaiting answers.
For someone who I’m sure has claimed to care about transparency, you have a very bad habit of picking and choosing what gets answered or even gets to stay up.
And why exactly do you get to decide in secret what’s “low effort” or worthy of being called parody or satire? Your reasoning for “off topic”, “baiting”, etc. comment deletions aren’t exactly sound, and you’ve claimed that you’re all apparently too lazy to even look at images before voting on them since no one but you read the Chrysalis image or saw that Aryanne had a dick in another.
Do you just intend to ignore the other issues people have because you have no response that is reasonable? I personally have two posts awaiting answers.
For someone who I’m sure has claimed to care about transparency, you have a very bad habit of picking and choosing what gets answered or even gets to stay up.
And why exactly do you get to decide in secret what’s “low effort” or worthy of being called parody or satire? Your reasoning for “off topic”, “baiting”, etc. comment deletions aren’t exactly sound, and you’ve claimed that you’re all apparently too lazy to even look at images before voting on them since no one but you read the Chrysalis image or saw that Aryanne had a dick in another.
Background Pony #6723
@Princess Luna
Are you seriously going to run a “bulk vote” where staff get to decide to delete things they don’t like? How are you rationalizing this? Don’t you see this is going to kill the site?
Are you seriously going to run a “bulk vote” where staff get to decide to delete things they don’t like? How are you rationalizing this? Don’t you see this is going to kill the site?
Background Pony #95A8
Deletion reason: Rule #0/6: Bait to derail
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