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Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1528

Princess Celestia
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

Administrator
Devops
Since I’ve already posted about this here….
 
We have received a PGP-signed message from Canternet’s (the IRC network we use) admin debunking the recent “logs” once and for all:  
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA512
This is Colgate from Canternet. The derpibooru admin channel has resided on Canternet since Nov 23rd, 2018.
I have checked server logs and there has never been a person with the nick or username “sixone” ever connected in 2020 or 2019.
Additionally, the hostmask used “Pony-mdg.hkm.138.91.IP”, is not even possible with our secret cloak key.
In short, this leak is guarranteed to be fake.
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–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=wDsP
—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1527

Princess Luna
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Thread Starter - Started a thread with over 100 pages
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Economist -
A Perfectly Normal Pony - <%Nebulon> Yeah, just fetch me a smaller anus, sweetie.
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
From the Night -

Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Princess Celestia  
I would like to further this in that I’ve heard of people accusing Derpy over this and I’m…just confused by it. Derpy’s handling of ban appeals tends to be very careful, he doesn’t end them early and he doesn’t ask people to stop associating with others, and I would be concerned if he did.
 
Now, as to something more on-topic and worthy of posting in a locked thread: Many people have been clamoring over the rule wording, and I think there were some minor flaws in it. I think things are out of proportion, but nonetheless, I do think we’ll try and make the wording clearer on what’s prohibited, at least in regards to portraying races negatively, which seems to have been an area of some confusion. No promises, but we also might be able to make it clearer the problem is when things cross the boundary of being purely about fiction and touching on reality.  
I must say I wish that I could be opening a user feedback thread right now, but it seems like threads like this do not work very well, and so an alternate means must be found.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1526

Princess Celestia
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

Administrator
Devops
I would like to provide some clarification on the recent “logs”:  
  1. The recent logs posted on 4chan are fake. The ideas presented don’t even sound like Nebbie, and there was a cheap attempt to copy his speech pattern (dual k’s and stuff like that).  
  2. Here is me grepping (searching through) all IRC logs between November 22, 2018 and today, searching for user “sixone” as presented in the “logs”:
     
    full
     
    As can be seen, such user never wrote a single message on any of the #derpibooru channels, and hasn’t ever even joined them. I have also searched for some messages as presented in the “logs”, which I could not find either.
     
    full

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1524

Princess Luna
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Thread Starter - Started a thread with over 100 pages
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Economist -
A Perfectly Normal Pony - <%Nebulon> Yeah, just fetch me a smaller anus, sweetie.
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
From the Night -

Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #A38C  
I don’t think anything as far as raceplay has been deleted period, including the stuff with Aryanne.
 
At any rate, this entire thread right now is basically just “find a nit to pick or old problem to bring up that TOTALLY proves staff are bad” instead of useful discussion. I’m locking it, any future communications on what the rule covers will have to involve other threads.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1523

Background Pony #A38C
@Derpy Whooves  
So then the mods have never seen Striped(Zebradom, same thing) as a problem in the past?  
Because it was never moderated, but with Nebbie now saying it CAN be a problem, it’s a little confusing.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1522

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1521

Background Pony #A38C
@Princess Luna  
“Striped stuff can be a problem”  
Has a single one ever been deleted because a mod thought it was ““problematic””?

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1518

Background Pony #95A8
Since striped is now the topic for debate, I must ask: is it protected exclusively for being a raceplay fetish?  
If the tides were turned, so to speak, and there was a zebra sub being dominated by, say, aryanne, and aryanne called the zebra slurs and/or heavily discriminated said zebra for their race in other ways, would be it allowed?  
If it was consensual and had very clear dialogue from the zebra that she wanted it, would it stay? What about if said situation was rape, clearly indicating no consent or desire to be discriminated in such a way?  
Since this site allows rape, and it still could be someone’s fetish I assume this would be a difficult choice to make
 
Obviously my example could be used on others, such as griffons, yaks, earth ponies, etc, you understand the point
 
tl;dr: does this particular fetish(raceplay) grant immunity from the new rule 0, and if so, will it be held to standard on both ends
 
Edit:  
@Rutter  
I too, share this concern, it’s very worrying that people can potentially be banned for what they do off-site, and genuine criticism of mods without verbal harassment/name calling is something that needs to be listened to, or at the very least, not banned for it

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1516

Background Pony #0CFF
@Princess Luna  
Striped is literally a reference to “Blacked.”  
It’s explicitly racist.  
Also you:
 
Random zebra would not be okay to post, as it’d seem to support racism (it’s basically saying “blacks sexually harass you, so you should call them slurs”).
 
An image can show sexual harassment of course, it just has to not generalize a race as doing such; a racial slur rather suggests it’s about race.
 
“I want to fuck you.” “No way zigger.” = Racist towards black people.  
[An entire tag where zebras rape and often stripe non-zebras, often talking about breeding a master race] = Not racist.  
How have you determined that the first image is racist towards black people and not the second.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1515

Princess Luna
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Thread Starter - Started a thread with over 100 pages
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Economist -
A Perfectly Normal Pony - <%Nebulon> Yeah, just fetch me a smaller anus, sweetie.
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
From the Night -

Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #0CFF  
Striped stuff can be a problem (especially in the cases where Zebras are meant as analogs for Africans), it’s just that there’s kind of a world of difference between “Come impregnate the master race~” and stuff showing gassing people for being a different race, and real-world symbolism can complicate things further as far as context.  
For context to matter, it has to be that you can’t just say “it’s racial, so it’s against the rules.”
 
@Background Pony #587E  
Again twisting my words. Context matters regardless of comedy; that is to say that if you make context that makes it very clear that you are telling people to be racist, whether or not there’s a joke involved doesn’t matter.  
I will not be tolerating further arguments on this whole spiel about comedy, since it seems like people aren’t listening and, more importantly, aren’t looking at the rule text that says nothing about comedy mattering.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1512

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1510

Background Pony #0CFF
@ArmadilloEater  
I’ve linked posts from Luna earlier in the thread showing the double standards at play, and you’re still not answering my question.  
Why is “Generic zebra asking aryanne for some fuck and being told no + slur” racist towards IRL black people while everything involved in zebra supremacy and the entire concept of ‘Striped’ isn’t racist towards black people.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1509

ArmadilloEater

French Taunter
@Background Pony #0CFF  
Well since I don’t agree that the equivalency should be taken into account in every case, without context that points to it being the case, AND Princess Luna agrees… Isn’t that all good then? Or do you think it should be automatic equivalence?

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1508

Background Pony #0CFF
@ArmadilloEater  
The latter, in-universe racism can be an interesting story angle and i’ve no opinion on it other than that.
 
Equating fictional races to real world equivilants is where the contention lies, and northern got it right.
 
 
@ArmadilloEater  
See my response to Luna’s post and i’ll also add that the decision to call X ‘racist’ and Y ‘not racist’ is the entire crux of the problem.  
Especially given the comments made by luna in this thread as to why the ‘no way fag’ meme’s proposed edit was declined.  
The exact same reasoning can be used for the zebra supremcy tag, but it isnt.  
The zebra supremcy tag is explictly racist and should be part of the ongoing audit, but it isnt.  
This rule should be getting enforced equally and fairly, but it isnt.
 
Edit: You also didnt answer my question regarding the linked image.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1506

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1503

ArmadilloEater

French Taunter
@Northern  
Actually Nebulon confirmed that this wasn’t the case, here. I also talked to him to make sure there really had been a misunderstanding there, because otherwise we would have been in deep disagreement. So, no, it’s not an automatic equivalence, thank fuck.
 
@Background Pony #174B  
There’s a lot there that does hold merit, though I need to point out that the internal discussion leading to a clearer implementation of rule #0 is still ongoing, so that doesn’t help with the “opaque” explanation; often our responses are “wait and see”, which can be understandably frustrating. We’re close though.
 
So, yeah I do agree that we need clarity, not only for the users’ sake, for the mods too: having clear guidelines will do wonders at avoiding mistakes or rushed decisions when it comes to deletions.
 
Though, I dunno about being too “drastic” when it comes to banning certain subjects, from one side like the other. Being generally permissive of themes, but still careful with the more extreme examples that do infringe rules seems fairer than just banning the themes all together, no? We’d lose a lot of interesting artworks if we clamped down too hard. Issue is defining the line, AND sticking to it. Users are gonna hold our feet to the fire to make sure the line doesn’t get shifted or forgotten, but hey, as long as the discussions around it are done in a civil manner, it’s not a bad thing.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1502

Background Pony #174B
The pages and pages of fighting, miscommunication, incredibly opaque explanations my mods and no set and clear understanding of what is allowed or not by the user base prove to me that this new rule change has been the dumbest, unconscionably bad and incompetent decision ever taken regarding this site. Doubly so for aforementioned rule’s rollout.
 
Its so unclear, no one knows what the hell’s allowed or not. Meaning they’ll have to keep coming to threads like this badgering mods about if a particular image is allowed or not, flooding the inbox of said mods with reports for the forseeable future. It certainly doesn’t help that there seems to be degrees of disagreement within the admin team itself about certain types of images that are and aren’t allowed.
 
That said, it looks like the rule is here to stay so, I’ll just say this: threads like this will keep popping up as long as there is no clarity. That this new system obviously leaves the decision on whether to delete an image at the whims of whatever mod’s on duty at a particular time and how they interpret what proper adherence to the new rule looks like means that there can be no clear rule like we had pre change. Still, that shouldn’t prevent the staff from at least trying to be definitive with the users about what’s allowed or not.
 
At the end of the day, if the rule is ‘these certain topics are banned and each reported violation is to be handled on a case by case basis and deletion is to be determined at the discretion of individual moderators/staff’ then, as unfair as that rule itself may sound, it would be more up front and honest than what’s going on now.
 
People will still complain its too arbitrary, that leaving what proper adherence to the new rule looks like up to every individual staff when judging an image rather than a set standard isn’t right but simply stating this would at least give users here some clarity on the process rather than leaving posters stratching our heads at what the heck the admins are doing deleting certain images where there is disagreement on if a rule was violated or not.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1501

Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@ArmadilloEater  
The site administration has already stated that ponies being racist against zebras is to be seen as racism against black humans. This standard was set earlier in this thread.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1500

ArmadilloEater

French Taunter
@Background Pony #0CFF  
@Background Pony #96D3  
I’d like to ask, so I can understand where you’re coming from: is your issue with zebra stuff centered around any form of in-universe specism (zebra supremacy, unicorn superiority, caribous etc) or is it about zebras being used as representations for blacks (which seems strange to me) and the ponies as, I dunno, whites?

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1498

Background Pony #0CFF
@Princess Luna  
“I want to fuck you.” “No way zigger.”  
According to you this is horribly racist and paints all zebras as sexual aggressors, and everyone knows zebras are just stand ins for irl people.
 
>>2068154  
Whats your take on this then?

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1497

Princess Luna
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Thread Starter - Started a thread with over 100 pages
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Economist -
A Perfectly Normal Pony - <%Nebulon> Yeah, just fetch me a smaller anus, sweetie.
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
From the Night -

Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #95A8  
These images seem like they’re not a problem as far as the OC inclusion; Milky Way’s not the main focus, doesn’t look like her normal portrayal, and the image overall doesn’t seem to be stoking drama.
 
@Background Pony #96D3  
This seems like a bit of a stretch, especially for images that don’t say “striped”. It is something to consider, but I wouldn’t think it’s enough on its own.
 
@Northern  
I think you got things backwards, and he was saying that images targeting ideologies likely are allowed, unlike images targeting people.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1496

Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
My arguments to him were that I wasn’t sure it was on the same line as the Chrysalis pic, because it didn’t actually target people, but an ideology. Is this a pedantic distinction? I’m not sure, but I feel that it’s important to allow targeting / questioning ideologies, to allow debate, as long as people aren’t being targeted. But, as you said, the issue is that some people will put the label of “nazi” on just about anybody to justify violence. And we’ve seen cases of this IRL. So… I’m pretty torn on that one TBH.
So the site admits it’s intentionally trying to censor images that target not only people but ideologies then? And more importantly, not only ideologies, but ideologies only in certain intangible contexts that the staff decides on a case by case basis…? Do you seriously not see the problem inherent in this for the userbase?
Unfortunately at this point going “just allow everything” is out of the table, so we just have to find the sweet spot.
Would you kindly explain why disallowing types of humor is necessary? I thought this was about racism, not humor.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1495

Background Pony #A38C
@Background Pony #96D3  
If we’re honest, it’s quite explicitly racist on the face of it and requires mental gymnastics to justify it in any way other than “Our politics say it isn’t racist” or “It’s the boss’ fetish”.

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1494

Background Pony #96D3
To address most of the discussion:
1: Derpibooru has not ever come out in support of saying “ACAB”; we allow images to contain the phrase, even spelled out, much as we allow other political statements that we don’t agree with, but which aren’t “over the line”. For the record, I personally do not like “ACAB” as a statement, and I find the Chrysalis with pig head image slightly uncomfortable to look at.
2: Pony races are not automatic real life racial stand-ins (note that Zecora is a racial stand-in in her introductory episode, but not others), it depends on image context. Rainbow can be shown killing Gilda just fine, but if you put swastikas on Rainbow and Gilda in a gas chamber, the context is pretty clearly indicating Gilda is a stand-in for a Jewish person, and the same would be true with Rarity. Zephyr Breeze instead would be a bit confusing however, due to being the same race as Rainbow and looking more “Aryan” than her.
@ArmadilloEater
I think the image of Aryanne masturbating in front of a gas chamber was pretty thoroughly discussed. The machine gun thing might need more review, but it’s low-priority.
The image with the Auschwitz-like gate in front of the School of Friendship was actually restored after more discussion, by the way, but that’s one where we had very minimal discussion originally.
 
What more context do you need to acknowledge striped content as a racial stand-in considering it directly got it’s name from blacked, a racial supremacy fetish genre of pornography. If racial supremacy with analogues to real life isn’t allowed how can you defend that?

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism » Post 1493

Background Pony #95A8
@ArmadilloEater  
I understand, I will only make one more post in regards to milky way unless the conversation is worth carrying on
 
In particular >>1434919 and >>1434921 would follow the same reasoning as to why the titanic image would be deleted, advertising a site(that would be particularly more unsavory than the alternate boorus in fact) that the oc owner may not approve of, and I’m wondering what would happen if the milky way owner found out and appealed for their deletion
 
The situation involving this image in particular is very strange, if it were a less popular oc I could see why this would happen because then the oc would be more closely related to the artist, in fact I didnt even know who the milky way owner was up until this deletion took place, and I’m certain I’m not the only one who never knew, I’m also of the mind that if an oc becomes very popular, artist association starts to vanish in many cases, oc:cream heart(Button’s mom) being a great example, and of course oc:filly anon and oc:aryanne  
But not all cases are like that, for example oc:paper bag is somewhat popular but is closely tied to the creator, and while not an oc, the twiggie meme is closely tied to jargon scott(And since she is so different from twilight you could grasp at straws and consider her somewhat of an oc, but I will not go there, as that is a very silly arguement)
 
My main concern that I want to highlight here is more about artist association in regard to “public” oc’s regarding rule 0 and how it should be handled and less about the titanic image in specific

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