For anti-Twilicorns:What will it take?

@Background Pony  
Who said that was why I stopped liking her in that episode?

@PonyPon  
for posterity I think you should articulate why you don’t like her?

@Background Pony  
Oh God, the anon who kept ordering anti-Twilicorns to leave the fandom is breeding. There’s another one.

@Whatevs  
Gee, might take me some time to compile it all, but:
 
-Original “everymare, but something special” appeal corroded into girl chosen by fate to get everything she could ever want before the series even began  
-Unwavering, zealot-like fear/love for a mare that has been shown not to deserve such devotion  
-all the negative aspects of her’s and Spike relationship(and there are positives, I’m aware of that)  
-supposed mastery of magic that isn’t used when it would be helpful, and is likely to cause trouble regardless due to unforeseen circumstances or her own neurosis  
-complete and utter lack of self awareness of her luck, station, power, and influence  
-questionable ability to care about other’s saftey  
-easily influenced by companions  
-the fact that few characters in story ever takes note of or acknowledges the above  
-given incredible authority regardless of the above
 
There are, of course, exceptions to that hapzard list, but I think that’s my general grievances with her.
 
In fact, I feel a little silly to take note of a Homestuck Fanfic to explain my feelings(if you’ll excuse my heresy), but this exchange, I think, accurately summarizes my feeling towards Sparkle.
 
GA: I Need To Say Something  
GA: Feferi  
GA: I Have Met Quite A Few People In My Short Time In Existence  
GA: Several Of Whom Seemed To Be Reasonably Decent People  
GA: And No Shortage Of Those Who Didnt  
GA: But Out Of All Of Them  
GA: I Think You In Particular Might Be One Of The Most Detestably Vexing Trolls Ive Ever Had The Pleasure Of Interacting With  
GA: I Hate You Feferi Peixes  
GA: I Hate Everything About You  
GA: I Hate Your Stupid Fish Puns And Your Tacky Clothes  
GA: And I Hate Your Absolutely Atrocious Decorum Completely Unbefitting One Of Your Privilege  
GA: And I Hate The Way You Idly Manipulate The Meanings Of The Quadrants As If The Very Foundations Of Our Society Were Your Plaything  
GA: But I Think  
GA: More Than Anything Else  
GA: I Hate You Because Youre Perfect  
GA: Because Youve Been Given Everything In Life And Its Only Fair That A Little Shouldve Been Taken Away To Compensate  
GA: But It Wasnt  
GA: All The Slings And Arrows Of Outrageous Fortune Have Been Cast Your Way And You Endured Them With A Smile On Your Face None The Worse  
GA: Youre Still The Same Bubbly Happy Friendly Perfect Feferi That Everyone Knows And Loves So Much  
GA: It Disgusts Me  
GA: But What Really Gets Me Is That Its All A Facade  
GA: I Thought You Might Just Be Empty Under That Hollow Candy Shell Of Yours  
GA: But The Truth Is That Deep Down You Really Are Just An Unpleasant Person But You Hide It Away  
GA: You Cloak It In A Haze Of Bubbly Saccharine Fog And Everyone Drinks It Up  
GA: And No One Has Yet Suffered From The Bitter Aspartame Aftertaste  
GA: No One But Me  
GA: And The Fact That Im The Only One Who Can See It Just Makes Me Hate You Even More  
GA: Because I Know You Have Flaws Because I Can See Them And Yet Somehow In Defiance Of All Known Systems Of Formalized Logic You Manage Nonetheless To Be Perfect  
GA: And I Hate Perfect

@PonyPon  
Not sure if really different AU or really OoC Kanaya.
 
Regardless, >>262719

@Itsthinking  

 
Why would the interaction and joking around change him?

@Red Yellow Moon  
I don’t know, he just doesn’t seem the same.

@Background Pony 395B  

Well. You’re a jerk. I don’t think I deserved that kind of a response, nor do any of the other fine folks taking part in the discussion. The fact that you hide behind your anonymity like a 4channer kinda zaps any credibility you could have had.
 
To actually address your comment - which, frankly, you don’t deserve - Twilight was a big part of the problem in “Bats!”; she was the one who used a spell without understanding its consequences. Again. (she did the same thing in “Swarm of the Century”).
 
As to “Castle Mane-ia”, I never complained about Twi understanding the castle when the others didn’t; that made sense. What I complained about was the part at the end where the others (minus Pinkie) basically stood there and had Twilight lecture them and then thank her for it, even though she could have fixed the problem earlier by just listening to Spike for once.
 
Twilight couldn’t get a cab in RTM. That actually is a problem, because, like I said, ponies should at least be able to recognize that she’s “special” even if they don’t grok that she’s a Princess.
 
Did I say even one thing about “Power Ponies” or “Daring Don’t”? No. In fact, go read the S4 thread. I’ve written mini-reviews on both those episodes. Suffice to say I’m glad that Twi is only a supporting character in both. BUT, both those episodes would play out the exact same way regardless of her status. So you kinda justified my complaint there.
 
Evidently you’ve never heard of the trope “Screw Destiny”. Oh, and Celestia made it very clear that she personally engineered Twilight’s “destiny”. Even if it was as benign as merely guiding Twi along the path of righteousness, her hoofprints are all over it. Plus, EQG shows Celestia tried to do it before, with… less-than-ideal results.
 
I and others call Twilight “Celestia’s puppet” because she never once opposes her or questions her, ever (except for once in the pilot, and even there Twilight did as she was told). Twi has heavily implied that she would do literally anything Celestia ordered, no matter how crazy, and that her primary loyalty is to Celestia rather than her family or friends. That’s the definition of a puppet.
 
IN SHORT - I don’t like Twilight, at least not anymore. PonyPon gave a fantastic rundown above me as to the reasons why. And like I’ve said many times in this thread, it’s not her Princess status that did it; it’s an accumulation of myriad problems with her character that have gone unaddressed for too long.

I honestly don’t get how anyone can think Celestia is a genuinely benevolent character. That’s just me. It’s all a facade. I think if you somehow took her out of the picture in someway, it would do a lot for Twilight’s character.

@Itsthinking  
I think she tries to be benevolent, but she’s a lot more ruthless (which I honestly like. The contrast of a fairly tale aura of idealism and a genuine Realpolitik streak is what makes Princess Bubblegum such a good character.) and a lot loss intelligent and wise then anyone realizes.
 
She’s like a big, friendly but dimwitted giant, though in an emotional and political sense. She has nothing but good intentions, but just as the giant ends up taking lives and crushing homes trying to play with his tiny friends, Celestia emotionally warps and manipulates everypony by sheer virtue of her status and power without even realizing it.

Celestia is a shepherd. She is leading a flock full of sheep. They do whatever she says. She is watching out for her flock. That is her main concern. I feel she is willing to sacrifice some of her sheep to the wolves to ensure the safety of the flock. The question is, how many sheep may be sacrificed until there is no flock left?

@Trickquestion  
Indeed, I like that she’s pretty ruthless and tries to keep it all together nicely by having a motherly aura of benevolence. Kind of like Queen Elizabeth, except much less wise and much more incompetent.
 
And yeah, I honestly don’t know if she knows the effect of what she does. You’d think living 1000+ years would impart a lot of wisdom to how personalities, and reaction to things, works. And it’s kind of scary, because I can see the same negative traits that Celestia has budding in Twilight and especially Cadance.
 
You can’t talk about negative parts of Twilight’s character without examining Celestia’s, in my opinion.
 
@Background Pony  
One, maybe two unicorns show extreme talent in a generation. She probably thinks Equestria can take the loss. Maybe it can…

@Background Pony  
We saw her cry when she banished Luna. She sees the Summer Sun Festival as a reminder of her battle with her sister. She has been shown to be noble and self-sacrificing. Before she engaged Chrysalis in battle she said, “I will defend my ponies from you.” SHE. IS. NOT. A. TYRANT.

@Trickquestion
 
@Itsthinking
 
And yet she’s shown to be regretful. She was only mad at Twilight because she acted out like a three-year-old with no evidence at that time. Celestia can be playful, kind and noble, but also remember, she is one of Equestria’s rulers for a reason and she is not afraid to remind others why they should fear her should they get on her bad side.

@Background Pony  
I’m not saying she’s a tyrant. She is a leader. One who happens to throw six ponies who happen to be a scholar, a farmer, a seamstress, a baker, a vet, and a weatherpony at every problem. Even if it doesn’t involve the elements of harmony. Dragon sleeping causing smoke. Send your personal little army of untrained civilians at it. She has an army, but she never uses it.
 
You know, I wonder how everypony would react if one of their own got killed during one of Celestia’s missions. Say Sombra did kill Spike. How would the mane six react? How would Celestia react?

@Background Pony  
She’s regretful that things don’t go how she wants them to (which is generally the way that would be the best for as many ponies as possible) but she doesn’t make a whole lot of effort to understand why things went badly. Celestia causes problems because she doesn’t understand how normal ponies function. and she doesn’t understand how she influences them.
 
@Background Pony  
She’d feel bad, and then probably continue doing things the exact same way. I don’t have a good idea what the other five would do, but Twilight would clearly blame herself and not her idol for throwing her into that stupid test to begin with.
 
When Nightmare Moon was banished, Celestia didn’t do anything and let her sister’s name fall into fear and obscurity.  
When Sunset Shimmer went bad, she didn’t make an effort to learn from her mistake, and ended up producing an even less functional pony on her second go.

@Background Pony  
I don’t recall ever seeing the Royal Army succeed at anything.
 
I’ve got it stuck in my mind that the guards are just a placebo, more to deter crime and calm the populace than actual fighting.

@DoomPony  
I like to believe the Pegasi part is actually just to keep their old militant culture alive

I see some people fear that Princess Twilicorn would not more emphasis on. But at the same time, there people who wouldn’t like it if there is TOO MUCH emphasis on Twilicorn? This is an indecisive fandom indeed. With all due respect.

@SeraphimDawn  
I would like a balance.

@DoomPony  
I simply cannot believe that. Celestia has been in power for over 1000 years without a functioning military? That seems ludicrous to me.  
@SeraphimDawn  
I know, it’s almost like the fandom is made up of different people with diverse views instead of just one hive mind. ;)

@Trickquestion  

The flashback shown in PTS notwithstanding, I like to think it took Celestia a long time to get over her anger at Luna’s betrayal, so she had no reason to stop ponies from besmirching her sister’s name; she probably encouraged it a bit. By the time she came around, anypony who knew Luna had died years earlier, Luna’s own name was long since forgotten, and Nightmare Moon had become but a legend. Thence came the centuries of guilt Celestia mentioned in PTS.
 

This needs to be repeated. Celestia seems to use a one-size-fits-all teaching style. It worked for Twi, but was a disaster for Sunset. This is because Sunset was too smart for her own good and fought back when Celestia withheld vital information. Granted, Sunset was far from blameless; she let her ambition consume her, was kind of a dick, and wasn’t willing to listen to what little good advice Celestia did give.
 
Twilight Sparkle is far more neurotic than Sunset Shimmer but probably slightly less intelligent and less magically proficient (pre-MMC); I imagine Celestia would feel that Twi’s blind loyalty more than makes up for any shortcomings. She’s Data to Sunset’s Lore, is a good way of putting it.

@The Twelfth Doctor Whoof  

 
Please be in jest…
 
And I wouldn’t doubt it if she at least tried to. Always has everything turn out the way she expected? Highly doubt that.

I find it funny that, for all the rage against Twilight being a Princess, her status had only served to hinder it.
 
“Y’know, you’re a Princess, so get the heck out of the forest, even though you’re the only thing that can save Equestria from getting invaded by thorny branches!”

@ClownDicks  

 
I want an answer from you dipshit, not them.
 
@The Twelfth Doctor Whoof  

 
Even though I disagree with you regarding the choice to make Twilight an alicorn (we mostly agree on the “princess” business), this criticism is spot on.
 
However, although you, Clowndicks, and others have correctly pointed out the unresolved narrative tension between Princess alicorn Twilight and the fact that the other characters within the setting failing to acknowledge that, you people are failing to notice a related tension. To me, the tension from Twilicorn is minor in comparison to the tension I’m about to mention, because Twilicorn is a smaller part of a much bigger problem. What tension is this? Well:
 
Why aren’t the mane six (incl. Spike) acknowledged as saviors of Equestria by anyone other than ‘important’ characters?
 
For as much importance within a given adventure episode/two-parter to a major threat to Equestria, the narrative sure-as-shit doesn’t seem to care anywhere else. This tension has been there since the second episode of the show…and has never been resolved. It’s like that the adventure episodes and two-parters were developed within a vacuum, for as much impact as they have anywhere else.
 
You say that making Twilight an alicorn princess is pointless since the narrative tension this creates with the setting is unresolved.
 
I respond with any adventure episode or two-parter is pointless since the narrative tension this creates with the setting is also unresolved.
 
Put it this way, FiM cares as much about Twilicorn, and her and her friends saving Equestria on multiple occasions as Mass Effect 3 cares about Shepard’s accolades