Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Background Pony #8526
The problem I have with arguments that “If you don’t vote for ‘x’ you’re voting for ‘y’” is twofold. Yes, if Bernie were to run third party he would split the Democratic vote and Trump would probably win. What I don’t like about this argument is that first, the mainstream party is not owed your vote. I’ve heard plenty of times that I should vote for the republican because they were the less bad option, but fuck them, they should vote for the libertarian then for the same reason. Those people are not owed my vote. Additionally, this is just another way to perpetuate the two parties, the Democrats and Republicans will never change their way when they know people will just keep voting for them because they dislike the other option.
Vortaxonus

@MethidMan  
do I have to still remind everyone that it took the second world war to kick Adolf Hitler from prime minister position? And even then it was because of his own life and Germany had to go through what can only be called a depropaganda campaign so it won’t happen again?
 
 
@Mikey  
Would it be more due to Biden himself or republicans saying “fuck no” to him, which will be a reality even if it was Bernie who won? But I won’t look down on you like methid, just be aware that you have a beyond uphill battle if you go fo third party.
Vortaxonus

@Vivace  
can you do a tl;dr with the links cause the article is long a shit. Also, a “mere” look I assume you meant, but either way, maybe include those links, or at least he beast ones, in that tl;dr.  
EDIT: especially for a site I only now heard of that was started by Kickstarter of all things.
MethidMan
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@Background Pony #9251  
I never said anyone owed their vote to anyone. I’m only pointing out what the consequences will be if you vote a certain way. Ultimately, though, it’s your choice who you wish to vote for or whether you even want to vote for anybody. It’s not like I can just come to your polling place and force your hand on a ballot. I can only inform people here.
 
Second, like I said before about the shittiness of the two-party system, you’d have a better chance of making a change to the two-party system under democratic control than under republican control. I don’t trust the democrats in bringing about much change either but with republicans in charge, they’ll only bring us closer to something even worse: a one party system…
 
@Mikey  
My issue is we need more socialist programs in the country but the DNC still pushes the “spooky socialism” agenda.
As if the GOP would have a better agenda…
Background Pony #8526
@Mikey  
I agree. So many people in this country say they would cote for other parties, but they are afraid to do so.
 
 
@MethidMan  
You never said that, but that is often the implication for when people complain about third party spoiler candidates. When a Republican or Democrat complains that they would have won if not for a third party taking their votes the implication is those votes were “theirs” to begin with. As for your second point, I don’t believe that. It really doesn’t make logical sense to me, the Democrats are not some benevolent group of people who don’t want total control, the Dems would love to also have a one party system.
MethidMan
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It really doesn’t make logical sense to me, the Democrats are not some benevolent group of people who don’t want total control, the Dems would love to also have a one party system.
 
Perhaps not benevolent, but lemme ask you this: would you rather have another Brett Kavanaugh or another Ruth Bader Ginsburg?
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@Mikey  
Bullshit, he won’t be locking kids in fucking cages and would have almost certainly actually fucking tried to stop the virus better than trump you people whining because the world isn’t perfect make me sick, i needed Bernie to win more than any of you, since i 100% need medicare for all or may not live out the decade, but you don’t see me throwing my hands up like a fucking asshole and saying “well if i can’t have revolution why should brown people not be locked up and torn from their arms because they wanted to save their lives?” fucking disgraceful,
Vortaxonus

@Vivace  
Can you at least try, this is a magazine I never heard before with articles written by one, very probably opinionated person, and can you at least double-check all those links in the article.
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@Vortaxonus  
I know, and I’m sorry if I came off as ignoring you. I’ve done a lot of research on World War 2 and Hitler so I’m fully knowledged about the circumstances that led to both his rise and his fall.
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@Vortaxonus  
How about instead of looking for reasons to dismiss the article I posted, you read it and check that the links are true? If you have time to post here, you have time to read.
 
@MethidMan
 
If “not Trump” or “not a Republican” is the only qualification you need to vote for someone, then what impetus is there for the Democrats to wake the fuck up and start fielding better candidates? My vote should not be taken for granted.
Background Pony #02F1
DNC cannot just make any one candidate the nominee, even if they have a preference
That ignores the effect of putting their finger on the scale to prop up the demonstrably inferior candidate though.
How unstoppable would the superior candidate have been in the primary if they did the same? How much in the general?
That’s a very hard thing to say for sure. Maybe some. Maybe none at all. Heck, I’ve seen at least one study that indicated dumping a whole bunch of money into a candidate’s campaign barely shifts people’s views of them. People can be very hard to convince out of views they already have, and as I pointed out previously, there’s a number of places that Biden was expected to do well regardless of external support, simply because the members of that area have always been more moderate politically.
 
 
@Dustcan  
Biden begins adopting some of Bernie’s plans to court his voters.
As said before, Bernie’s continued presence is still forcing Biden the-people-pushing-the-hand-truck-carrying-Biden’s-brain-dead-body to the left on policies.
Well he said just the other day that he planned on reaching out to them, so good on him for actually making the effort to do so.
Vortaxonus

@kleptomage  
hoe about you convince me that this article from a kickstarted inde magazine, especially since it links a video (from the totally not biased twitter) about him “bragging” about cutting social security from 1995, about 25 years ago, which means he at least changed his mind since then (that’s a possibility). There’s also this PolitiFact quote.  
During the 1980s and 1990s, Biden spoke in favor of freezes to Social Security as part of an effort to rein in all spending to reduce the deficit.
“The only way that Congress will ever be able to come to grips with deficits is by dealing with all federal programs as a package,” Biden said in 1984.
In 1984, Biden co-sponsored a proposal with two GOP senators to broadly freeze federal spending. The proposal would have meant no Social Security cost-of-living adjustments for one year, but it was defeated.
In 1995, Biden voted in favor of an amendment to exclude reducing Social Security benefits in any legislation to implement a balanced-budget amendment. But Biden ultimately supported the balanced-budget amendment when its final form didn’t include the exemption.
 
There’s also the Iraq war, which started 18 years ago, and in fact not three years after the Iraq war, and quoting from Wikipedia this time “In 2006, about three years into the war in Iraq, Biden believed the original authorization on the use of military force in Iraq in 2002 had been a mistake because President Bush “used his congressional authority unwisely.” Biden argued that the 2002 resolution needed revision because Saddam Hussein had since been deposed and executed, and because the weapons of mass destruction that the Iraq regime supposedly had stockpiled — a principal justification by the Bush administration for going to war — were never found. Biden opposed increasing troops in Iraq while favoring the training of Iraqi soldiers to maintain the security of their own country and said U.S. troops should “responsibly draw down” and not stay in Iraq indefinitely.”
 
in fact, from 2016, and quoting from the same Wikipedia article “In a 2016 interview with Richard N. Haass, President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Biden spoke about changing “the fundamental approach [America] had to the Middle East”, and that the lesson learned from Iraq is “the use of force with large standing armies in place was extremely costly, [and] would work until the moment we left.”
 
These are issues that I place in an order roughly similar to the article, and that’s on purpose.
 
There’s also the sex allegations against Biden, which is kind the elephant in the room which another article of the site mentions, which the guardian have this to say about.
 
One obvious reason is that Reade’s accusations are very hard to prove. The incident happened a long time ago and there weren’t any witnesses. Reade also gave a slightly different version of events last year; she accused Biden of touching her neck and shoulders in a way that was inappropriate and uncomfortable, but did not say anything sexual took place. This inconsistency obviously doesn’t mean she’s lying; unfortunately, it is easy to use against her.
Reade’s story may be impossible to verify, but this is the case with the vast majority of sexual assault allegations. It is nearly always a case of “he said, she said” – and it is nearly always the “he’ that is automatically believed. The #MeToo mantra “Believe Women” doesn’t mean that women never lie; it means that our systems of power are biased towards believing men never lie. It means that it takes decades of allegations and scores of women coming forward for powerful men like Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby to be brought to justice. All the mantra means is that you shouldn’t automatically disbelieve women.
You know who has talked publicly about the importance of taking women seriously? Biden. During the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, Biden stood up for Dr Christine Blasey Ford, noting: “For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real.”
Does this presumption not apply when the guy being accused is a Democrat running for president? It would seem that way. In January, according to reporting from the Intercept, Reade asked for help from the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund, which has supported accusers of high-profile people like Weinstein. Reade was reportedly told by the National Women’s Law Center, the organization within which the Time’s Up fund is housed, that it couldn’t assist with accusations against a presidential candidate because it would jeopardize their non-profit status. The Intercept further notes that “the public relations firm that works on behalf of the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is SKDKnickerbocker, whose managing director, Anita Dunn, is the top adviser to Biden’s presidential campaign”.
vit
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@Background Pony #9251  
Not this bs false equivalence again. For the last time, that happening under Obama was the exception, not the norm. Only in actual cases with strong evidence of trafficking. And they worked to make the detention as temporary as possible. It was a means to an end. And his supporters still criticized him.  
Under Trump, its an end in itself. Its the first and only response applied to everyone without distinction. Indefinite detention. No oversight. All as a cruelty deterrent as confessed by Jeff Sessions because the cruelty is the point.  
Never repeat your bs again.
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