Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only]

AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@DerpyFast
I admit I am rather "cratively" useing the word "retcon". I just try to avoid calling everything "bad writting".

Information that gives context to anything is good, as long as it doesn't come out of the left field completly. Forshadowing is the key to good story telling. If this episode would be somewhat foreshadowed ealier, most of my complaints wouldn't happen.

It was still a pretty decent episode tough.
DerpyFast
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@AWGear
Well, the writers work with what they're given. If the new writers think of something that the old writers didn't, it doesn't seem fair to criticize a perfectly valid explanation on the basis that it wasn't foreshadowed, since such foreshadowing would be impossible.
Chrysipuff

I kind of like Chrysalis
So what's the general consensus on Chrysalis brief moment of reflection in Frenemies?
I kinda expected lots of people would be talking about it, but I see no one.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@DerpyFast
That is absolutely understanable, but there are still some ways of going around that.

The simplest one there is would be not useing a character that has already well defined personality, but use some more "background" character (in context of Gar Gar's personality change).

or you could make spike question the ability of changeing the "fire temperature" at the beguin of the episode (in context of the colorful flames).

There is still a way of writting the same story, just with minor diferences that make everything smoother.
AC97
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@Chrysipuff

I felt like she's tempting fate when she said she won't let it happen to her.

In fact, she might not be the only one it happens to either, quite possibly…
Myoozik
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Playboy
@DerpyFast
Plus, I feel like at this point, it's hard to keep track of everything that the show had done since the beginning. It has had so much happening from both the original writers and even the new ones that so called "continuity errors" are bound to happen.

@Chrysipuff
I think generally favorable, though people were talking more about Cozy after the ep.
DerpyFast
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Anyways, thoughts on the actual episode. It was quite good.

It's the ninth goddamn season. Fluttershy being afraid of something just can't be a source of conflict anymore. Seven episodes into the first season, she talked a fully grown dragon into submission, but it took the entire episode for her to reach that point. If people want her confidence and assertiveness to to have finally stuck after eight years, her characterization in this episode is what that looks like. Her fascination with baby dragons was literally the fourth thing established about her character, so it's nice to finally see that detail reincorporated.

I've always felt like the more you reaffirm something, the less impact it has. But this episode combines elements of her character in a way that really pops. We don't get to see a lot of Fluttershy's motherly side in action. With her fearful side put in its place, we get to see her motherly and her assertive side on display in an environment that she would have previously found terrifying. If that isn't how you organically reaffirm character growth, then I don't know what is.

As I write this, it occurs to me that Smolder and Spike are mostly just a plot device; it's ultimately Garble and Fluttershy's victory. My requirements for a good redemption are as follows:

- A personal sacrifice.

- A meaningful gesture of change.

In the climax, Garble sacrifices the most important thing to him: his image as "the tough guy". He endures the same torment he subjected others to, all for the greater good. I'm not super invested in Garble, but I found his redemption satisfying enough.

And holy shit, they did it. Fluttershy's love of baby dragons was something they established at the very beginning. I just realized that her finally getting to see them is the culmination of all her growth as a character. I really thought that The Mane Six were over-cooked, and that there couldn't possibly be any satisfying conclusions left for them, but here we are.



Overall, the more I think about this episode, the more I like it, which is a good sign.
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That was an okay episode. Good, but not very good. Oddly assertive Fluttershy is welcome, since unlike others I think they're finally writing her as actually being assertive. Garble's redemption(?) was an odd choice, and while it's not bad I do think it was an interesting idea to go for since we've already done this with Spike and Smolder, and that's just dragons. That said, him being a beat poet is spot on writing, and I love the idea. This being Ember's first hatching season throws even canon timelines out the window unless dragons only reproduce every few years, which… would explain a lot, actually.

And a note on animation: they're doing it wrong. Early in the episode there's an achingly obvious attempt at forcing a meme on us, and it looks unnatural, in the same way Rarity did last week. I really hope this doesn't keep happening, because it's annoying and kind of unsettling.
Chrysipuff

I kind of like Chrysalis
@ILoveMyoozik
It just feels weird that the whole anti-reformation movement kind of disappeared after the episode Frenemies gave Chrysalis (and Tirek I suppose) some signs of humanity as opposed to be pure irredeemable evil as they were at the start.
Considering how it has always been a controversial subject among fans, I don't know if they missed it out, shrug it off or gave up of the show altogether.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@Chrysipuff
I am still rather "firmly" against reformation of them, mostly because:
1. It teaches kids that everyone has some "good" in them, which isn't true,
2. It would be kinda boring where every villian gets redeemed or destroyed (It just gets old at a certain point).
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@GenericArchangel
I completly agree. It feels forced and too much like fanservice. Granted, those didn't look "AS BAD" as the Nose-less Rarity in "She's All Yak", but it still could be better by being more "normal".
Myoozik
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Playboy
I think I'm like one of the few people who DIDN'T like Garble's redemption. I feel like it was too rushed and tacked on.

@GenericArchangel
I agree that her faces in the beginning were too unsettling and off-putting.

@Chrysipuff
It did? I never thought of that actually. I just thought that they were going to do something with her, Tirek and Cozy Glow as a set up for the finale.

Considering how popular Chryssy is, I'm gonna guess the second option that they shrugged it off.
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@AWGear
They reminded me of TJPones' or PaperBagPony's styles more than anything else, but those don't translate well into the show's environment. Better, but not good, that's for sure.
Twi Clown
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@Chrysipuff

The thing is, the show often redeemed characters before giving them something worthy of redemption. This is something the show always struggled. In fact, Luna, Discord and Sunset had some problems that they addressed after that (Luna wasn't bad received at first but it certainly shows his age, as Nightmare Moon is redeemed kinda abruptly, althought it helps that we get a glimpse of backstory before the confrontation so it kinda helped.) Starlight even today is divisive because of that, she was redeemed abruptly after making incredibly destructive choices, and even if she wasn't aware of the damage to the timleline, she still did very evil things because of one friend lost and them after being foiled for rightful reasons. And after Strlight is when the whole redemption got annoying for some, specially since characters like Juniper Montage and Vignette Valencia were redeemed despite showing them as incredibly unlikeable prior to their redemption, not helped by the lack of repercutions from their actions.

Showing Tirek, Chrysalis and Cozy as relatively more humane helps a lot, as we actually see some redeemable qualities that some people can interpret as a possible redemption, though I personally think they're still beyond saving, but I can understand why.
AWGear
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The Devil's Advocate
@GenericArchangel
I think they just saw how "well" did those faces took off and they do the typical internet thing of "Let's attempt on replicateing something succesful" by completly missing the point of why those "memes" became soo popular.
Chrysipuff

I kind of like Chrysalis
@Twi Clown
I mean the moment with Chrysalis was a bit of an 180º for the current point in the story.
She never felt compassion for any of her hive but a stranger awakens something inside her?
Twi Clown
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I'll rule the world
@Chrysipuff

Maybe she has a heart…………or maybe she'll make the tragic choice of ignore those feelings because of her pride and will keep going with what she does.
DerpyFast
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@ILoveMyoozik
I wasn't all that moved by it, but I think it's technically good.


@AWGear
1. It teaches kids that everyone has some "good" in them, which isn’t true,

You're not wrong, but the lesson that some people are just irredeemable is way too cynical for a kid's show, and it's not something a person should learn unless they really have to.


@Chrysipuff
I really think people need to separate the idea of being reformed from the supposed subtext of the changelings' new appearance. People make the "colourful = good, black = bad" argument, which makes sense until you consider the context. The new changelings aren't even presented as good. The changelings didn't overthrow Chrysalis out of a sudden rush of altruism, they did it because they were presented with an option that wouldn't leave them starving. They aren't good or bad, they just do what makes sense at the time.

I'm curious as to what the anti-changedling and anti-reformation people would think if the changelings' new form was closer to Pharynx's new design. I like the new changeling design, but objectively speaking, them looking more like Pharynx would probably have been better.
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